ART SIPPO AND THE THREE COMMON SENSE POINTS

On the blog of Patrick Madrid , Art Sippo had answered questions on extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

Patti makes a comment and the apologist Art Sippo responds.

Patti

USA

7253 Posts Posted - 02/07/2010 : 2:24:56 PM

It is the position of the Catholic Church since Vatican II that it is not STRICTLY necessary to be a card carrying member of the Catholic Church in order to be saved. But it IS the ORDINARY means by which a human being is saved and frankly the only way that carries any assurance of salvation…

Yours in Christ,

Patti

Art Sippo responds.

artsippo

USA

5205 PostsPosted - 02/07/2010 : 3:15:36 PM

Absolutely, Patti! I wanted to make it clear that VCII was the watershed of the many centuries of Catholic reflection on the mystery of the Church...

Apply the Three Common Sense Points.

1. There is no way that we can know of a particular person saved in invincible ignorance or the baptism of desire because of its very nature. It is known only to God.

2. There is no text in Vatican Council II or the Catechism which claims we know of any such case. (Lumen Gentium 16 mentions the possibility of such people being saved, which we accept conceptually. De facto we do not know if there is even one single case in the present times, or the last 100 years)

3. So Vatican Council II and the Catechism do not contradict the ex cathedra dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus(1).-The Three Common Sense Points

The question is: is there one person this month saved with the baptism of desire or being in invincible ignorance? Can Art Sippo answer Yes ?

If I ask him if there was a case of the baptism of desire this month, or last year, he is not going to say Yes.

The baptism of desire is a gift of God. We cannot claim that someone has received the Baptism of Desire this month. We cannot claim to know the Mind of God. We cannot claim that someone or many people have been saved in invincibile ignorance this month.

Art  Sippo makes the  common error. He  postulates that since it is possible to be saved in invincible ignorance we know of such cases in real life. Then he suggests this  contradicts the dogma which says everyone needs to enter the Church for salvation and there are no exceptions.

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1.

Here is the ex cathedra dogma.

1. “There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215). Ex Cathedra

2. “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 302.). Ex Cathedra

3.“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)  Ex Cathedra – from the website Catholicism.org and “No Salvation outside the Church”: Link List, the Three Dogmatic Statements Regarding EENS http://nosalvationoutsideofthecatholicchurch.blogspot.com/ )