Here is an e-mail I have received . It includes my reply.
Jim : You are disingenuous.
Lionel : Jim, please do not expect me to say that I know of specific cases saved in invincible ignorance etc, or that I know of new cases this month or last year who have gone to Heaven. Neither does the Church make this claim.
Jim : It is not enough to admit that “someone who has not heard the Gospel can be saved”, and then wriggle out of that admission by saying “we do not know any specific case”.
Lionel : You will not admit that there are any knowable cases in the present times and neither does any Church document claim so.
Jim : I am not asking you for any specific case.
Lionel : You cannot. Neither can I.
Jim : It suffices to know that the CHURCH ACTUALLY TEACHES there are some just in heaven who “never heard of Christ and His Church and its teachings
Lionel : Correct. Even the 'Feenyites' will agree with you. See their definition of the Baptism of Desire on the website Catholicism.org .
Jim :something you will not admit because you hang on desperately to the Feeneyite error that formal visible membership is absolutely necessary for salvation.
Lionel : The Church teaches in the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus that formal membership in the Church is necessary ( Cantate Domino). This does not conflict with the belief that in principle it is possible that a person can be saved in invincible ignorance and it will be known only to God.
Jim : But the Catholic Church does NOT teach that.
Lionel : Cantate Domino, Council of Florence etc, Ad Gentes 7, CCC 845,846, Dominus Iesus 20 etc.
Jim : The work of grace by the Holy Spirit reaches out to those who may never been able to know of Christ and His Church to establish a certain invisible belonging or relation to the Church by cooperative souls that enables them to be saved. That is what Vatican II teaches (:Lumen Gentium, 16)/
Jim :It is not enough to admit that “someone who has not heard the Gospel can be saved”, and then wriggle out of that admission by saying “we do not know any specific case”.
Lionel : You will not admit that there are any knowable cases in the present times and neither does any Church document claim so.
Jim : I am not asking you for any specific case.
You cannot. Neither can I.
Lionel . It suffices to know that the CHURCH ACTUALLY TEACHES there are some just in heaven who “never heard of Christ and His Church and its teachings
Lionel : Correct. Even the 'Feenyites' will agree with you. See their definition of the Baptism of Desire on the website Catholicism.org .
Jim : Something you will not admit because you hang on desperately to the Feeneyite error that formal visible membership is absolutely necessary for salvation.
Lionel : The Church teaches in the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus that formal membership in the Church is necessary ( Cantate Domino). This does not conflict with the belief that in principle it is possible that a person can be saved in invincible ignorance and it will be known only to God.
Jim : But the Catholic Church does NOT teach that.
Lionel : Cantate Domino, Council of Florence etc, Ad Gentes 7, CCC 845,846, Dominus Iesus 20 etc.
Jim : The work of grace by the Holy Spirit reaches out to those who may never been able to know of Christ and His Church to establish a certain invisible belonging or relation to the Church by cooperative souls that enables them to be saved. That is what Vatican II teaches (:Lumen Gentium, 16)/
Lionel . True in principle but de facto, rationality, tells us we cannot never know a single case. And if we can never know a single case in the present time, how can it contradict the teaching of Cantate Domino ?
In Christ
Lionel
Lionel : You will not admit that there are any knowable cases in the present times and neither does any Church document claim so.
Jim : I am not asking you for any specific case.
You cannot. Neither can I.
Lionel . It suffices to know that the CHURCH ACTUALLY TEACHES there are some just in heaven who “never heard of Christ and His Church and its teachings
Lionel : Correct. Even the 'Feenyites' will agree with you. See their definition of the Baptism of Desire on the website Catholicism.org .
Jim : Something you will not admit because you hang on desperately to the Feeneyite error that formal visible membership is absolutely necessary for salvation.
Lionel : The Church teaches in the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus that formal membership in the Church is necessary ( Cantate Domino). This does not conflict with the belief that in principle it is possible that a person can be saved in invincible ignorance and it will be known only to God.
Jim : But the Catholic Church does NOT teach that.
Lionel : Cantate Domino, Council of Florence etc, Ad Gentes 7, CCC 845,846, Dominus Iesus 20 etc.
Jim : The work of grace by the Holy Spirit reaches out to those who may never been able to know of Christ and His Church to establish a certain invisible belonging or relation to the Church by cooperative souls that enables them to be saved. That is what Vatican II teaches (:Lumen Gentium, 16)/
Lionel . True in principle but de facto, rationality, tells us we cannot never know a single case. And if we can never know a single case in the present time, how can it contradict the teaching of Cantate Domino ?
In Christ
Lionel
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