'There is the possibility of a non Catholic being saved. We accept this in principle(as a concept). We do not know any such case since it is known only to God.'

Jim says

 

See Lumen Gentium, #15, #16 where obviously many non-Catholics are referred to as joined or related to the Church and thus in a position to be saved.

 

Lionel: We do not know any specific case in the present times.

Jim : If you would like a specific individual non-Catholic to be named, remember that it is similarly impossible to name a living Catholic who is assured of the Beatific Vision (heaven).

Lionel: We cannot name a specific individual person as being in Hell, you and I cannot, not with our human abilities. However the Church does tell us that there are some sins that orient a person to Hell. If one dies with mortal sin and without absolution in the Confessional your on the way to Hell. The Catechism indicates all it takes is just one mortal sin. You are still rejecting an ex cathedra dogma according to the Church your on the way to Hell.

If you die without the Sacraments I would assume that you were oriented to Hell, gone to Hell and are there still. If there was an exceptional reason for you being saved it would be known to God only.

 

Jim : However, the truth that non-Catholics can be SAVED certainly proves the truth that it is not NECESSARY TO BE A VISIBLE MEMBER OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

Lionel: Please be specific and precise.

There is the possibility of a non Catholic being saved. We accept this in principle(as a concept). We do not know any such case since it is known only to God.

De facto everyone with no exception needs to enter the Church for salvation.

 

Jim :

to arrive at salvation. As a number of pre-Vatican II theologians wrote (with their teaching CONFIRMED by Vatican II’s “Dogmatic Constitution on the Church” Lumen Gentium),

(1) The necessity of the Catholic Church for salvation is absolute;

Lionel: Correct. However they need to mention that it is necessary to be a formal member.

Many liberal theologians leave this issue vague.

 

Jim:

(2) Some union with the Church is absolutely necessary for the salvation of each individual;

Lionel : They leave this vague too implying those who are saved implicitly are in some union with the Church.

Jim:

(3) This union is not confined to the status of actual and explicit visible membership in the Catholic Church;

Lionel: It’s here where they go off the track since they assume that we know of cases in the present times who are saved with invincible ignorance etc and so every one does not have to be a formal member of the Church to be saved.

 

Jim :

(4) Every non-Catholic who achieves salvation nevertheless is saved because of the graces radiating from the Catholic Church as the “sacrament of universal salvation”.

Lionel: True, and this does not conflict with the teaching that everyone with no exception in the present times needs to formally enter the Church to be saved .

 

Lionel: The Church tells us that there are some sins which are mortal sins and that a person who is in this condition in public is not to receive the Eucharist(Canon 915). So we know there are some grave sins and the Church repeats this teaching of the Bible.

'Being oriented to Hell' does not mean 'condemned to Hell'. Correct. Neither does it mean not being condemned. But here again, you presumptuously jump the gun and appear to know more than the Church in excluding specific persons (ex. Mohammed) from salvation.

 

Lionel

 

“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.) Ex Cathedra

Also see Dominus Iesus 20 .

In Christ

Lionel