AN EX CATHEDRA DOGMA, CANTATE DOMINO, CANNOT HAVE A RIGORIST AND ALSO NON RIGORIST INTERPRETATION

Fr.Leonard Feeney, Church Councils, popes, saints, Vatican Council II and Magisterial texts after Vatican Council II indicate every one needs to be a visible member of the Catholic Church which is a Biblical teaching.

Jim: You certainly know what Fr. Feeney’s error was. He believed one had to be a visible member of the Catholic Church to be saved, thereby giving an unwarranted restrictive meaning to” Nulla Salus Extra Ecclesiam”.

Lionel : Correct. This is what the dogma teaches and it was believed for centuries in the Catholic Church. This was the teaching of the Church Councils, the popes and the saints. It is affirmed in Vatican Council II. Pope Pius XII referred to it as ‘the dogma’, the ‘infallible teaching’ (Letter of the Holy Office 1949).Every one needs to be a visible member of the Church to be saved is the centuries old teaching in the Catholic Church.So the Letter of the Holy Office supported Fr. Leonard Feeney on the dogma how could he be excommnicated for heresy? Neither does the Letter say he was excommunicated for heresy or in error on the dogma.

Jim: But the Catholic Church does not believe that, for it teaches that those who through no fault of their own do not know Christ and His Church can be saved.

Lionel: Before and after Vatican Council II the teaching of the Church is the same i.e. every one with no exception needs to enter the Church since those saved in invincible ignorance etc are unknown to us and known only to God, so they are not exceptions to the dogmatic teaching.

Jim: You hold to a variant version of Feeneyism since you allow for a baptism of desire though holding that we can never know who may be saved by that means.

Lionel: Fr. Leonard Feeney like the saints and popes taught every one needs to be a member of the Catholic Church through Catholic Faith and the baptism of water and there were no exceptions .There is no case of the baptism of desire case that we know today. This has been the official teaching of the Church.

Jim: Fatal flaw in your position is that it is based on the rigorous interpretation of “Cantate Domino” (Decree of the Council of Florence for the Jacobites).

Lionel: An ex cathedra dogma, Cantate Domino, cannot have a rigorist and non rigorist interpretation this applies to all Catholic teaching.

If you say that every one needs to enter the Church except for those in invincible ignorance or the baptism of desire then your 'non rigorist interpretation' is flawed since rationally we know there is no baptism of desire etc, that we can know in particular cases, de facto or de jure. There is no defacto case of the baptism of desire. To claim there is such a case is a new doctrine and not part of the deposit of the faith which only knows of an implicit baptism of desire.

Jim: What you utterly fail to notice is that nowhere in that document does it speak of a “baptism of desire”. So where did that come from?Lionel:Correct. Nowhere in Cantate Domino is the baptism of desire mentioned,neither, those saved in invincible ignorance. The members of the Church Councils had read the Church Fathers they knew that the baptism of desire or being saved in invincible ignorance was a possibility. They also knew that it was implicit and so did not contradict the dogma which indicated every one must be an explicit member of the Church for salvation. They knew that you could not meet anyone on earth who was in this exceptional category.So why mention it?

Jim:So you are not actually in agreement with “Cantate Domino” which says nothing about any “baptism of desire”.Lionel: Cantate Domino says nothing about the baptism of desire true, since those who formulated it were rational and intelligent people and were not burdened with a false propaganda about implicit baptism of desire being explicit and known to us in the present times, in particular cases. They were not told that the Church now teaches that there can be an explicit baptism of desire even though we know rationally it is implicit and known only to God.

Jim:“Nulla Salus Extra Ecclesiam” must be interpreted as the Church does, not as you do. (See Catechism of the Catholic Church, 846-7) 

Lionel: True it must be interpreted as the Church does and I have provided Church texts to support my view.

CCC 846 says everyone needs to enter the Church as ‘through a door’. This was the Church Fathers teaching on extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

CCC 846 also says all those who are saved, are saved through Jesus and the Church. This refers to those saved implicitly and explicitly. We do not know any case of someone saved implicitly and the dogma says everyone needs to be an explicit member of the Catholic Church.

So the dogma is not contradicted by the Catechism of the Catholic Church or Vatican Council II.

-Lionel Andrades