Also others on the blog are afraid of supporting the SSPX position on other religions ?
Here are the posts from The hermeneutic of continuity relevant to this subject. Fr.Tim Finigan has not posted my last post in which I have said: So I can conclude that none of you can answer the question: Would you know any adult on earth saved with the baptism of desire or in invincible ignorance ?
Here are the posts from The hermeneutic of continuity relevant to this subject. Fr.Tim Finigan has not posted my last post in which I have said: So I can conclude that none of you can answer the question: Would you know any adult on earth saved with the baptism of desire or in invincible ignorance ?
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Catholic Mission said...
Catholic Mission said...
SSPX WEBSITE: ' I believe in three baptisms for the forgiveness of sins’ ?
So when the SSPX bishops and priests recite their Oath of Fidelity to Pope Benedict XVI and they are asked to say aloud the Nicene Constantinople Creed, which we pray in Church, they will say 'I believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sin’ and mean ‘I believe in three baptism for the forgiveness of sin, the baptism of water, desire and blood’.
Fr. Joseph Pfeiffer on the SSPX website,THE THREE BAPTISMS writes that Fr.Leonard Feeney in his 1952 book, Bread of Life, states on p.25:
It is now: Baptism of Water, or damnation! If you do not desire that Water, you cannot be justified. And if you do not get it, you cannot be saved."
Yes without the baptism of water no one on earth can be saved and we cannot give anyone the baptism of desire or judge who has a genuine baptism of blood (martyrdom). So obviously any non Catholic you meet needs the baptism of water for salvation.So Fr.Leonard Feeney was correct.
The baptism of desire can never ever be an exception to the need for the baptism of water. Since we cannot know any such case.
So when the SSPX bishops and priests take their oarth of fidelity to Pope Benedict XVI and they are asked to recite the Nicene Constantinople Creed they will say 'I believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sin’ and mean ‘I believe in three baptism for the forgiveness of sin, the baptism of water, desire and blood’.
CONTINUED
4/20/2012 11:43 AM
Fr Tim Finigan said...
The Church has held since the first centuries that someone who desires baptism will be save. The Church has also taught that this desire may be implicit.
But Baptism of desire is not sacramental baptism and therefore a person who desires baptism can and should be baptised with water when there is the opportunity.
4/20/2012 12:05 PM
Catholic Mission said...
Fr.Tim Finigan
The Church has held since the first centuries that someone who desires baptism will be save. The Church has also taught that this desire may be implicit.
Lionel:
I agree with you.
Would you agree that we do not know any case on earth of someone in 2012, having the baptism of desire and being saved?
These cases are known only in Heaven ?
Fr.Tim Finigan
But Baptism of desire is not sacramental baptism and therefore a person who desires baptism can and should be baptised with water when there is the opportunity.
Lionel:
Yes. We agree.
So would you say every one on earth with no KNOWN EXCEPTIONS needs the baptism of water and Catholic Faith for salvation ? (AG 7) ?
In Christ
Lionel
4/20/2012 12:10 PM
Catholic Mission said...
Cardinal Luiz Ladaria, Bishop Charles Morerod O.P Oath of Fidelity: to dissent
Profession of Faith allows for dissent on ecclesiology and baptism.
Cardinal Luiz Ladaria S.J the Secretary of the Vatican Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has been the President of the International Theological Commission (ITC), Vatican. Bishop Charles Morerod O.P has been the Secretary of the ITC.
They have had published two papers which are available on the ITC website. In these two theological papers they have written that the Catholic Church no more teaches exclusive salvation. Since there can be those saved in invincible ignorance (LG 16) etc. So there are known exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
So when they made their Profession of Faith and took an Oath of Fidelty they recited the Nicene Constantinople Creed in which we pray ‘I believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sin’. However they really meant that not every one on earth needs the baptism of water for salvation. There could be known people saved in invincible ignorance etc. So in actuality there is not one baptism of water for the forgiveness of sin. There are known exceptions in the present times.
There understanding of the Church is also different, even though in the Profession of Faith they said ‘ I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.’(1)
There understanding of Church is based on the false assumption that we know cases of non Catholics saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire and so Vatican Council II (LG 16) and Pope Pius XII's Letter of the Holy Office 1949 have mentioned known exceptions to exclusive salvation in only the Catholic Church.(2)
There understanding of Church (ecclesiology) is that every one on earth with no exception does not need to enter the Church for salvation. The holy catholic and apostolic Church is not necessary for the salvation of all people with no exception.
CONTINUED
4/20/2012 3:59 PM
Fr Tim Finigan said...
Perhaps the best modern magisterial treatment of this subject is Dominus Iesus.
4/20/2012 4:22 PM
Catholic Mission said...
Fr Tim Finigan
Would you know any adult on earth saved with the baptism of desire or in invincible ignorance ?
So would you say every one on earth with no KNOWN EXCEPTIONS needs the baptism of water and Catholic Faith for salvation in 2012 ?
4/22/2012 3:21 PM
Fr Tim Finigan said...
We do not have the certainty of faith concerning our own salvation, though we should not doubt the mercy of God. (cf. Council of Trent Decree on Justification.)
So we can't say of an individual "he is certainly saved".
But it is reasonable to think that there are many people in the world today who are in invincible ignorance.
Anyone who is not in that state does need baptism of water for salvation unless they die desiring Baptism at least implicitly.
4/22/2012 10:56 PM
Catholic Mission said...
We do not have the certainty of faith concerning our own salvation, though we should not doubt the mercy of God. (cf. Council of Trent Decree on Justification.)
So we can't say of an individual "he is certainly saved".
But it is reasonable to think that there are many people in the world today who are in invincible ignorance.
Anyone who is not in that state does need baptism of water for salvation unless they die desiring Baptism at least implicitly.
Lionel:
Yes, we agree here. There is the possibility of a non Catholic saved in invincible ignorance or the baptism of desire.We accept this is as a possibility, of course.
Would you know any adult on earth saved with the baptism of desire or in invincible ignorance ? I do not.
Would Mariana ,Gor,Brian or any one else in 2012 know ?
4/23/2012 3:10 PM
Tim Finigan said...
Lionel - We cannot have certainty about a particular individual's salvation unless the Church canonised someone, but it is possible for an individual to be saved if he is in invincible ignorance.
I think we have rather done this topic now.
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