If it exists or does not exist for the traditionalists, can they see any case of the baptism of desire in 2012?
If we cannot see these cases ,what difference does it make to the literal interpretation of the dogma ?
SEPTEMBER 14, 2012 12:08 PM
Lionel:
Do you agree ?
No i don't agree because there isn't a case of baptism of desire period. I confess as a catholic, one baptism for the remission of sins. There are no other baptisms. It doesn't matter if i know them; i wasn't asked to know but to confess; so what I confess is the only one since what i confess belongs to the church.
SEPTEMBER 14, 2012 12:12 PM
Lionel:
The Catholic Church says there is the possibility of a person being saved with the baptism of desire etc. So we accept it as a possibility
So the same church whic tells us to "confess one baptism for th remission of sins" says that "baptism of desire is a possibility?" Sounds a bit contradictory; catholic churc cannot contradict itself
servusDominaeNostrae said...
You say that Vatican II mention those who are saved in invinsible ignorance but do not claim that they are known to us...". Don't you find that a bit contradictory?
Lionel:
It is only contradictory if you assume that they are known to us.
In itself it is not a problem.
servusDominaeNostrae said...
Lionel:
Vatican Council II simply mentions invincible ignorance etc. Possibilities are not known realities.
servusDominaeNostrae said...
If V II doesn't know then it simply shouldn't say. Can you answer that?
Lionel:
Invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire are not known realities, we do not know any explicit case. In principle, in faith we accept that they could be possibilities known only to God.
So it is mentiond by the Church Fathers,the Councils, the popes, the saints and Vatican Council II.
servusDominaeNostrae said...
It is heretical to assume that we know cases on earth saved with the baptism of desire who are exceptions to the defined dogma. It's also irrational.
I agree with you.
servusDominaeNostrae said...
So baptism of desire is a baptism that is unknown?
Lionel:
It is unknown to us, we cannot see any case. We do not know any case on earth.
servusDominaeNostrae said...
If it is unknown; how do we know that it even exists or if it's even a possibility?
Lionel:
In faith. The Church refers to it. Pop pius XII refers to it so do the many popes and saints.
Even the community of Fr.Leonard Feeney has provided a definition of it. (genuine desire, charity and the baptism of water).
They do not know any particular case but in faith they know it is possible to be saved in this way.
servusDominaeNostrae said...
It's not just about what we know; but what actually exists; can we speculate about what is unknown?
Lionel:
In faith, according to the teachings of the Church it is possible for a non Catholic to be saved with implicit desire.
When this occurs it is not relevant to the literal interpretation of the dogma.
servusDominaeNostrae said...
"I'll deal with the blatently erroneous statement first; that "there is only one known baptism"
Lionel:
The baptism of water is the only known baptism. We can see it and repeat it.
The Nicene Creed refers to this baptism.
servusDominaeNostrae said...
If we said in the Nicene Creed "I believe in one known baptism for the remission of sins" I would agree with you; but it doesn't and you'd have to concede that if the Nicene Creed is placed next to your assertion about "knowledge" then the two professions would be different and would mean different things. The Nicene Creed says "I believe in one baptism..." Your Creed would say "I believe in one known baptism" which implies that it is a possibility that there are other baptisms which are unknown."
you didn't deal with this response by me; tht the Nicene Creed proves thee is one baptism; and dosn't assert one "known" baptism; i confess one baptism for the remission of sins; what's the one baptism that you confess?
Lionel:
If 'my Creed' was there it would say I believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sin. It would mean, according to common sense, 'I believe in one known baptism for the forgivess of sin'. The baptism of desire is unknown.
ServusDominaeNostrae said...
I would not have to say I beleive in one known baptism since there is ONLY one known baptism.
No, there is only one baptism period;
Lionel.
Correct. The baptism of water.
In reality there is only one known baptism.
Explicitly there is only one known baptism.
Dejure (implicitly) and known only to God there can be a baptism unknown to us, which is not visible to us. Implicit desire is not visible to us.So if someone is saved with implicit desire and in a manner known only to God it would not be known to us.
it's wrong to say there is one known baptism because it asserts ther are other unknown baptisms.
Lionel:
Yes in faith we accept that a person can be saved with implicit desire and conditions known to God. Since this does not contradict the dogma it is not an issue.
servusDominaeNostrae said...
You claim that "You and I do not know any case of a person saved with the baptism of desire."
Lionel:
Do you agree ?
servusDominaeNostrae said...
No i don't agree because there isn't a case of baptism of desire period.
Lionel:
You mean theologically you agree there is no baptism of desire period..
Philosophically also you cannot see any person saved with the baptism of desire ?
Visibly you cannot see the dead-saved with the baptism of desire?
servusDominaeNostrae said...
I confess as a catholic, one baptism for the remission of sins.
Lionel:
Yes as Catholics we confess one (known) baptism of water for the forgiveness of sins.In reality, defacto there is only one baptism for the forgivessness of sins.
servusDominaeNostrae said...
There are no other baptisms.
Lionel:
In reality, de facto there are no other baptisms. Explicitly there are none in 2012.
servusDominaeNostrae said...
It doesn't matter if i know them;
Lionel:
You cannot know them.
They are unknown to you and me in reality, in 2012.
servusDominaeNostrae said...
i wasn't asked to know but to confess; so what I confess is the only one since what i confess belongs to the church.
Lionel:
We can confess that there is only the baptism of water for the forgiveness of sins in 2012.
There are no other baptisms known in 2012.
servusDominaeNostrae said...
Lionel:
The Catholic Church says there is the possibility of a person being saved with the baptism of desire etc. So we accept it as a possibility
servusDominaeNostrae said
So the same church which tells us to "confess one baptism for the remission of sins" says that "baptism of desire is a possibility?" Sounds a bit contradictory; catholic church cannot contradict itself
Lionel:
It would be contradictory if you considered a possibility being a known reality in 2012.
If the baptism of desire is not a reality in 2012, we do not know any case, then it does not contradict the teaching that there is only the baptism of water in 2012 for the fogiveness of sins and for salvation.
It does not contradict the Principle of Non Contradiction.
-Lionel Andrades
_____________________________________________
DIMOND BROTHERS ASSUME THE BAPTISM OF DESIRE IS VISIBLE TO US AND SO CRITICIZE JOHN SALZA
I can affirm the literal interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus alongwith implicit baptism of desire etc and I do not have to become a sedevacantist. They can do the same.
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Jesus said to go forth and teach all nations in all that I have commanded you.
There can be NO situations in which a Catholic cleric or Catholic layman should ever teach or imply anything other than ONE Baptism of Water needed for the forgiveness of sins. That is our belief and solemn vow in the Nicene Creed. No one should ever say to someone that you might hope for Baptism of Desire. That is nonsense. Cardinal Cushing was greatly responsible for the crisis in the Church buy saying that good people worthy of Salvation were to be found everywhere including even Non Catholics and lapsed Catholics. He saw them everywhere and ceased to teach conversion to the one and only true Church. Being Baptized and being saved are two different subjects. Not only must we be baptized with water but we must be Catholics who die in the
state of sanctifying grace free from mortal sin to enter Heaven.
Leave the possible scenarios of baptism of desire and invincible ignorance completely in the hands of God. For us to teach baptism of desire or invincible ignorance as known or explicit to us on earth is heresy. If we knew someone gained salvation by baptism of desire and gained Salvation the Church would have the duty to proclaim them a Saint. We must teach ' No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church ' with conviction and no exceptions. We must teach the Faith and leave any unknown mercies to God alone.
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