Julie:
“There is no salvation outside the Church” is meant to be understood that all are saved through the Catholic Church whether they are Catholic or not. It does not mean we must become members in order to be saved.
Lionel:
Vatican Council II says we must be ‘members in order to be saved’.
Therefore, all must be converted to Him, made known by the Church’s preaching, and all must be incorporated into Him by baptism and into the Church which is His body. For Christ Himself “by stressing in express language the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mark 16:16; John 3:5), at the same time confirmed the necessity of the Church, into which men enter by baptism, as by a door.- Ad Gentes 7,Vatican Council II
All need faith and baptism(AG 7) for salvation is also the dogmatic teaching defined thrice.
Julie:
We cannot say that if you are not Catholic you are a heretic.
Lionel:
According to Vatican Council II and the dogma when I meet a non Catholic I know he needs to convert for salvation.
While, when you meet a non Catholic you cannot say that he is saved through Jesus and the Church- you do not know. You do not know if he will be saved with the baptism of desire or invincible ignorance etc.This is known only to God.
Julie:
All Christians are connected in our common belief in Jesus and the Church recognizes that the Jewish people are still held in God’s favor.
Lionel:
According to Vatican Council II and the dogma they need to convert for salvation.While you and I do not know any exception on earth.
Julie:
The Catechism of The Catholic Church should be your point of reference for understanding and preaching the faith.
Lionel:
We have the same Catechism of the Catholic Church but two interpretations. One affirms the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus(mine) and the other assumes that there are known, explicit exceptions to the dogma(yours).
Julie:
Your comments do not reflect that.
Lionel:
My comments are based on reason. All those who are saved are definitely saved through Jesus and the Church and since these cases are not known to us they do not contradict the dogma on salvation.
Julie:
Pulling passages out of the Second Vatican Council document is not prudent.
Lionel:
Ad Gentes 7 agrees with the dogma on salvation.So would Dominus Iesus 20 etc.
Julie:
The Catechism is very clear on Baptism and Baptism of Desire.
Lionel:
Yes. The Catechism does not say that we know cases on earth saved with the baptism of desire or that these cases are explicit and so are an exception to the dogma. You have to imply this error.
Julie:
Baptism is the ordinary means of salvation but those who are not even Christian can be saved if through no fault of their own they are not aware of Jesus but attempt to live their lives that are pleasing to Him.
Lionel:
Yes.Agreed. And since these cases are not known to us they are irrelevant to the literal interpretation of the dogma.
Julie:
To say that Christians of another denomination are not united to Catholics is error. They are baptized and are already one with us in their belief of Jesus.
Lionel:
Ad Gentes 7 says they need Catholic Faith for salvation.
They do not have the Sacraments.They commit mortal sins. They divorce, contracep and abort and this is permitted by their communities.
The dogma Cantate Domino, Council of Florence 1441 like Vatican Council II says they need to convert for salvation. Cantate Domino refers to them as schismatics and heretics.
Julie:
Please read the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
Lionel:
For example Unitatis Redintigratio (UR) on Ecumenism in Vatican Council II refers to those in ‘imperfect communion with the Church’.
We do not know a single specific case of such a person saved. You will assume these cases are known and so interpret Vatican Council II and the Catechism of the Catholic Church accordingly.
I will accept them in principle as possibilities known to God only and so irrelevant to the dogma on salvation and not a contradiction of AG 7.
The interpretation is important since it is directly linked to the Medugorje message of Vicka.-Lionel Andrades
If Vatican Council II is in accord with the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus them most people do not go to Heaven.
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/12/if-vatican-council-ii-is-in-accord-with.html#links
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Father Faber from The Most Precious Blood:
"Pages 92 & 93
" If the precious Blood had been shed, and yet we had no priesthood, no sacraments, no sacramentals, no jurisdiction, no mystical life of the visible unity of the Church----life so it seems, would be almost intolerable. This is the condition of those outside the Church; and certainly as we grow older, as our experience widens, as our knowledge of ourselves deepens, as our acquaintance with mankind increases, the less hopeful do our ideas become regarding the salvation of those outside the Roman Church. we make the most we can of the uncovenanted mercies of God, of the invisible soul of the Church, of the teaching of invincible ignorance, of the easiness of making acts of contrition, and of the visible moral goodness among men; and YET what are these but straws in our own estimation; if our own chances of salvation had to lean their weight upon them? They wear out or they break down. They are fearfully counterweighted by other considerations. We have to draw on our imaginations in order to fill up the picture. They are but theories at best, theories unhelpful except to console those who are forward to be deceived for the sake of those they love,-- theories often very fatal by keeping our charity in check and interfering with that restlessness of converting love in season and out of seasons, and that impetuous agony of prayer, upon which God may have made the salvation of our friends depend. Alas ! the more familiar we ourselves become with the operations of grace, the further we advance into the spiritual life, the more we meditate on the character of God, and taste in contemplation the savor of his holiness, the more to our eyes does grace magnify itself inside the Church, and the more dense and forlorn becomes the darkness which is spread over those outside...... Would not the divine assurance of our salvation be a very heaven begun on earth? Yet the sacraments are the nearest approach to such a sweet assurance as the love of our heavenly Father saw to be expedient for the multitude of his children..... In truth, no created intelligence of angel or of man could have imagined it."
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