Joseph Shaw would not say that all need to formally enter the Church for salvation in Britain. This would be the old ecclesiology.Instead he would say that there are exceptions. This is the new ecclesiology.

FIUV 'fundamentalist'?

Here's another question. Mgr Loftus attributes the view that the EF represents a different 'ecclesiology' from the OF to Cardinal Benelli back in 1976; he gives no source for the quotation, but it is a familiar enough idea, if a vague one: I've never seen it properly explained. What Loftus is perhaps unable to appreciate is how dangerous this argument is for supporters of the reformed Mass. For the claim amounts to saying that the 1970 introduced an ecclesiology - a theology of the Church - which is incompatible with the one which had been taught by the Church, through the liturgy and elsewhere, from time immemorial. But the immemorial teaching of the Church can't be wrong, so the claim amounts to saying that the reformed Mass teaches error. Is that what Loftus really thinks? Are other progressives comfortable with that idea?-Dr.Joseph Shaw, Professor of theology and philosophy University of Oxford, U.K

Lionel:

Mgr Loftus attributes the view that the Extra ordinary Form of the Mass, the Tridentine Latin Mass, represents a different 'ecclesiology' from the Mass in 1976. Yes! Since the ecclesiology comes from the Marchetti-Cushing error.This error was not there in the Church before 1949. So it was not there with the Old Mass.

After 1949 there was no more an exclusivist ecclesiology. Since it was assumed that there was salvation outside the Church.It was wrongly assumed that being saved with the baptism of desire or in invincible ignorance were explicit exceptions to the traditional interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.It was inferred that these cases now in Heaven were visible and known on earth ! So it was concluded that all do not need to enter the Church for salvation.

For the claim amounts to saying that the 1970 introduced an ecclesiology - a theology of the Church - which is incompatible with the one which had been taught by the Church, through the liturgy and elsewhere, from time immemorial.- Dr.Joseph Shaw
Lionel:

Loftus is correct.The ecclesiology with the irrational premise and inference is the new theology. The new theology is based on the irrational premise and inference.It is accepted in the  contemporary Catholic Church that there is no more an exclusivist ecclesiology. This is confirmed in one of the theological papers of the International Theological Commission.It   was approved by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger. Cardinal Luis Ladaria S.J, the present Secretary of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith(CDF)  was the then President of the ITC, as Fr.Luis Ladaria, a professor at the Pontifical Gregorian University.It is this  irrational ecclesiology which the CDF wants the SSPX and the Franciscans of the Immaculater to accept.

 

But the immemorial teaching of the Church can't be wrong, so the claim amounts to saying that the reformed Mass teaches error.-  Dr.Joseph Shaw
Lionel:

No the immemorial teaching of the Church can't be wrong and is not wrong but the ecclesiology after 1949 uses an irrational proposition, to change the traditional interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

Catholic priests in Rome who offer the Extraordinary Form also affirm the new ecclesiology.They say that the baptism of desire is an exception to the Feeneyite version of the dogma on exclusive salvation in the Church.Do they personally know of any such case ? They say No. Was there any such case mentioned in a Church Document before 1949. The answer is no.

The issue is related to doctrine and theology and not the Mass. This is the new ecclesiology of Archbishop McMahon, the then bishop of Northampton, shown on the blog.

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Is that what Loftus really thinks? Are other progressives comfortable with that idea?-  Dr.Joseph Shaw
Lionel:

Pope Francis has said that the EF should not be ideological.

The Vatican allows the Tridentine Rite Mass to be offered but without the exclusivist ecclesiology of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

It is this new ecclesiology which Prof. Joseph Shaw teaches at Oxford and which has been accepted by the FIUV.Joseph Shaw  would not say that all Jews, Muslims and other non Catholics need to formally enter the Church for salvation in Britain. This would be the old ecclesiology.

Instead he would say that there are exceptions. This is the new ecclesiology.

-Lionel Andrades

 

 

 

 

http://www.lmschairman.org/2015/04/fiuv-fundamentalist.html