The St. Benedict Centers are saying there are known exceptions to the dogma EENS,outside the Church there is known salvation, so they reject Vatican Council II for suggesting this.

March 14, 2016

Father Michael Müller: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus

http://eponymousflower.blogspot.it/2016/03/father-michael-muller.html

From the blog The Eponymous Flower with comments

Edit: well worth the read!  The more things change... Other Müllers would do well to copy the life of this evangelical giant.

Lionel:Like Fr.Michael Muller and Fr. Leonard Feeney I hold the traditionalist interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus (EENS). There is no salvation outside the Church for me.Since physically there cannot be any known salvation outside the Church, past or present.There are no objective exceptions in 2016 to the interpretation of EENS according to these two priests.

Can Tancred(The Eponymous Flower)  and Brother Andre Marie MICM, Prior, at the St.Benedict Center, Richmond, N.H, USA, also state that there are physically no visible and known exceptions to the dogma EENS? Difficult?

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CFN Editor’s Note: Father Michael Müller was one of the most widely read theologians of the 19th Century. He ranks as one of the greatest defenders of the dogma “Outside the Church there is no salvation” in modern times.
 Father Müller always submitted his works to two Redemptorist theologians and to his religious superiors before publication, thus we are sure of the doctrinal soundness of his teachings. This article, first published in 1875, is one of the finest treatments of the doctrinal truth that Our Lord founded one true Catholic Church, outside of which there is no salvation. Father Muller’s firm writings are desperately needed in our time when this doctrine is denied by those who are the most influential members of our Holy Church. We publish Father Müller’s excellent little Catechism as an antidote to the prevalent religious indifferentism — an indifferentism that is the direct result of what Blessed Pius IX denounced as “Liberal Catholicism”.


1. Do all admit that the Catholic Church is the first and the oldest Church, and, consequently the Church established by Jesus Christ?

That the Catholic Church is the first and oldest and consequently the Church established by Jesus Christ, is and must be admitted by all, because it is a fact clearly proven by Scripture and by history.

Lionel:

Agreed.The Catholic Church has also always affirmed the  'strict' interpretation of the dogma EENS and did not consider being saved with the baptism of desire or in invincible ignorance as referring to explicit cases, visible in the flesh.This error was clearly made in the Letter of the Holy Office 1949. Similarly priests and lay supporters of the SSPX make the same error as the 1949 Letter.They assume there are known cases of the baptism of desire and blood and being saved in invincible ignorance. They also assume that these known cases exclude the baptism of water.
This is irrational.Since there cannot be any physically seen or known case of someone saved without the baptism of water.We cannot see them in Heaven if they existed nor can we predict that any person alive will be saved without the baptism of water.So the baptism of desire etc were never any issue with respect to the dogma EENS.This error is also made by John Vennari from whose blog this report is taken.

The irrationality in thinking ( visible persons saved without the baptism of water) is also used in the interpretation of Vatican Council II. LG 16 ,LG 8, UR 3 are considered  explicit and then it is postulated that these objective cases are exceptions to the traditional interpretation of EENS according  to Fr.Leonard Feeney and Fr.Michael Muller.

Tancred, on this blog, and the St. Benedict Centers interpret Vatican Council II also as a break with EENS. In other words LG 16 etc refer to visible instead of invisible cases.

For me LG 16 etc is a reference  to invisible cases.So Vatican Council II does not contradict the interpretation of EENS according to Tradition, according to Father Muller and Father Feeney.

Yet Tancred and Bro.Andre Marie and Bro. Thomas Augustine MICM, Priors at the St.Benedict Centers, in the Diocese of Manchester and Worcester,USA, will not say that LG 16, LG 8, UR 3 etc refer to invisible cases and so they do not contradict the traditional interpretation of EENS.

This point is not being dealt by them or Tancred. I have asked them two simple questions.They refuse to answer them.

TWO QUESTIONS 

1) Do we personally know any case of a dead person, now saved in invincible ignorance, a good conscience (LG 16) etc, without the baptism of water,can we see them, are they physically visible to us in 2016 ?

2) Since we do not know any such  case, in real life, they are not physically visible for us,  there are no known exceptions to the literal interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus, or Ad Gentes 7 which states 'all' need 'faith and baptism' for salvation?

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2. Who bear witness to this fact?

The Jews and the Gentiles bear witness to it, and even Protestants themselves acknowledge it, because, if asked why they call themselves Protestants, they answer: “Because we protest against the Catholic Church.”

Lionel:

However the Jews and Gentiles today can also bear witness to the fact that the St.Benedict Centers consider LG 16 an exceptions to the dogma EENS and so they reject Vatican Council II. In other words the St. Benedict Centers are saying there are known exceptions to the dogma EENS.They are  saying that outside the Church there is known salvation and so they reject Vatican Council II for suggesting this.

They are saying a Protestant can be saved in his religion 'with elements of sanctification and truth'(LG 8) . These cases are not hypothetical for the communities of Fr. Leonard Feeney. They are objective. So a Jew can be saved outside the Church in invincible ignorance (LG 16) or with a good conscience (LG 16).Otherwise why would they reject Vatican Council II? Why do they not say Vatican Council II is Feneeyite? They reject the Council since they assume there is known salvation outside the Church according to Vatican Council II.

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3. What follows from this answer?

That the Catholic Church is older than Protestantism; otherwise they could not have protested against her.
Lionel:
So what ? The doctrine has been changed with the visible-dead theory, the dead man walking and visible new theology.This has been accepted by the traditionalists.
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4. If we go still further back and ask the Greek Church how they came into existence, what will be their answer?

The Greek Church must answer: “We began by separating from the Catholic Church in the 9th Century.”

Lionel:

The present magisterium has also separated itself from the Catholic Church of the ninth Century. They have done this by assuming hypothetical cases are objectively known in the present times.With this error they interpret Vatican Council II and so does the SBC and the SSPX.

-Lionel Andrades