Saturday, June 3, 2017

Colin C.Donovan and EWTN apologists undermine the Dogma of Faith let them be anathema

OUTSIDE THE CHURCH THERE IS NO SALVATION 

By Colin B. Donovan EWTN 

Rebuttal: Warren E. Goddard


The doctrine that "Outside the Church there is no salvation" is one that is constantly misinterpreted by those who won't submit to the Magisterium of the Church. Faith does not depend upon our ability to reason to the truth but on our humility before the Truth presented to us by those to whom Christ entrusted that task. This is why the First Vatican Council taught that it is the task of the Magisterium ALONE to determine and expound the meaning of the Tradition - including "outside the Church no salvation."- Colin B. Donovan 


Rebuttal: Warren E. Goddard

                                                                                                                                                                      “The doctrine that 'Outside the Church there is no salvation' was defined to clarify and affirm the Faith by Pope Innocent III Fourth Lateran Council and became dogma; therefore, it must be believed as stated. It is heresy for anyone to expound its meaning:

Hence, too, that meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by Holy mother Church, and there must never be any abandonment of this sense under the pretext or in the name of a more profound understanding. First Vatican Council.
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Colin B. Donovan 

“...is one that is constantly misinterpreted by those who won't submit to the Magisterium of the Church.” 

Warren E. Goddard

Being a dogma, it cannot be misinterpreted. We are bound to believe it as stated and disregard any, even magisterial, teaching to the contrary. For example, in his May 31,1995, General Audience address, Pope John II referenced the dogmatic Councils of Florence and Lateran IV before contradicting them saying, “Salvation is accessible in mysterious ways, in as much as divine grace is granted to them by virtue of Christ's redeeming sacrifice, without external membership in the Church, but nonetheless always in relation to her" - not to mention Our Lord's tying entry into salvation to water and faith.

Lionel: Pope John II has misrepresented the Councils of Florence and Lateran IV with Cushingism. He assumes being saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire refer to visible and personally known people. He then infers that these known people are examples of salvation without the baptism of water.They are examples of salvation outside the Church for him.He has accepted the New Theology based on the irrational philosophy.

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Colin B. Donovan 

“Faith does not depend upon our ability to reason to the truth but on our humility before the Truth presented to us by those to whom Christ entrusted that task.” 

Warren E. Goddard

For infallible truth all we have are Scripture and dogma. Progressives can't change Scripture, but they sure undermine dogma while pretending to uphold it: 

Progress of dogmas is, in reality, nothing but corruption of dogmas. I absolutely reject the heretical doctrine of the evolution of dogma, as passing from one meaning to another, and different from the sense in which the Church originally held it.  Pope St. Pius X Lamentabili Sane.

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Colin B. Donovan 
 “This is why the First Vatican Council taught that it is the task of the Magisterium ALONE to determine and expound the meaning of the Tradition—including 'outside the Church no salvation'". 
Warren E. Goddard
To the contrary, the defining Magisterium ALONE had the task of affirming the truth as dogma and no following Magisterium can expound and change its meaning: 

If anyone says that it is possible that at some time, given the advancement of knowledge, a sense may be assigned to the dogmas propounded by the church which is different from that which the church has understood and understands: let him be anathema. Vatican Council I.

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Next: 
Colin B. Donovan 

Concerning this doctrine the Pope of Vatican I, Pius IX, spoke on two different occasions. In an allocution (address to an audience) on December 9th, 1854 he said: 

We must hold as of the faith, that out of the Apostolic Roman Church there is no salvation; that she is the only ark of safety, and whosoever is not in her perishes in the deluge; we must also, on the other hand, recognize with certainty that those who are invincible in ignorance of the true religion are not guilty for this in the eyes of the Lord. And who would presume to mark out the limits of this ignorance according to the character and diversity of peoples, countries, minds and the rest? 


Rebuttal: 

Warren E. Goddard
To the contrary, Pope Pius IX's allocution Singulari quadamm does not provide an exception for “invincible ignorance”: 

We have learned with grief that another error, not less melancholy, is introduced into certain parts of the Catholic world, and has taken possession of the souls of many Catholics. Carried away with a hope for the eternal salvation of those who are out of the true Church of Christ, they do not cease to inquire with solicitude what shall be the fate and the condition after death of men who are not submissive to the Catholic faith. Seduced by vain reasoning they make to these questions replies conformably to that perverse doctrine. Far from Us, Venerable Brothers, to lay claim to put limits to the Divine mercy, which is infinite! Far from Us to scrutinize the counsels and mysterious judgments of God, unfathomable depth where human thought cannot penetrate ! But it belongs to the duty of Our Apostolic office to excite your Episcopal solicitude and vigilance to make all possible efforts to remove from the minds of men the opinion, as impious as it is fatal, according to which people can find in any religion the way of eternal salvation. Employ all the resources of your minds and of your learning to demonstrate to the people committed to your care that the dogmas of the Catholic faith are in no respect contrary to the Divine mercy and justice. Faith orders Us to hold that out of the Apostolic Roman Church no person can be saved, that it is the only ark of salvation, and that whoever will not enter therein shall perish in the waters of the deluge. On the other hand, it is necessary to hold for certain that ignorance of the true religion, if that ignorance be invincible, is not a fault in the eyes of God. But who will presume to arrogate to himself the right to mark the limits of such an ignorance, holding in account the various conditions of peoples, of countries, of minds, and of the infinite multiplicity of human things? When delivered from the bonds of the body, we shall see God as He is, we will comprehend perfectly by what admirable and indissoluble bond the divine mercy and the divine justice are united; but as long as we are upon the earth, bent under the weight of this mortal mass which overloads the soul, let us hold firmly that which the Catholic doctrine teaches us, that there is only one God, one Faith, one Baptism; to seek to penetrate further is not permitted.


Warren E. Goddard
In this allocution on indifferentism, Pope Pius IX says that “It is destructive error to believe that those who never lived in the true Church” may be saved. He also says that the invincibly ignorant, among those not saved, are not guilty of indifferentism in the eyes of God because knowledge of the Faith was not available to them. 
Then we have Pope St. Pius X quoting Pope Benedict XIV on ignorance: “We declare that a great number of those who are condemned to eternal punishment suffer that everlasting calamity because of ignorance of those mysteries of faith which must be known and believed in order to be numbered among the elect.” Acerbo Nimis. April 15, 1905 

Next: 
Colin B. Donovan 

Again, in his encyclical Quanto conficiamur moerore of 10 August, 1863 addressed to the Italian bishops, he said: 

It is known to us and to you that those who are in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion, but who observe carefully the natural law, and the precepts graven by God upon the hearts of all men, and who being disposed to obey God lead an honest and upright life, may, aided by the light of divine grace, attain to eternal life; for God who sees clearly, searches and knows the heart, the disposition, the thoughts and intentions of each, in His supreme mercy and goodness by no means permits that anyone suffer eternal punishment, who has not of his own free will fallen into sin. 


Rebuttal: 

Warren E. Goddard
To the contrary, Pope Pius IX's Encyclical Quanto Conficiamur Moerore does not even imply that those who are in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion may as such attain to eternal life. 

Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal torments.



Warren E. Goddard
Pope Pius IX was responding to sophistical “invincible ignorance” inquiries of his day by distinguishing between those lost due to indifferentism (having and dismissing knowledge of Christ and His Church) and those lost due to invincible ignorance (knowledge of Christ and His Church never being available). He then said the latter are not punished for being ignorant as are the indifferent. 

Note that the encyclical's official text is “suffer eternal torments” not “eternal punishments” given above. In summary this encyclical: 
1.Censures Catholics who believe that men can attain salvation from outside the Church. 
2. This “very grave error in which some Catholics are unhappily engaged” is quite contrary to Catholic teaching. 
3. An invincibly ignorant man can, by the operating power of divine light and grace, attain eternal life. 
4. No one can be saved outside the Catholic Church, and those who obstinately and persistently separate themselves from the Church cannot obtain eternal salvation. 
5. Those not guilty of deliberate sin do not suffer eternal torments but, due to original sin, they are punished with the loss of Heaven. 

Next: 
Colin B. Donovan 

These statements are consistent with the understanding of the Church contained in the documents of Vatican II, and the Catechism of the Catholic Church, as well as explaining why the rigorist position of Fr. Feeney (that all must be actual members of the Catholic Church to be saved) has been condemned by the Magisterium. It is ironic that precisely those who know their obligation to remain united to the Magisterium, and thus on whom this doctrine is morally binding, keep themselves from union with the Roman See on this point. 


Rebuttal: 

Warren E. Goddard
Image result for Photos of CardinalRichard Cushing

“These statements are consistent with the understanding of the Church contained in the documents of Vatican II, and the Catechism of the Catholic Church.” 

Pope Pius' statements are misused to coincide with Vatican II and the Catechism of the Catholic Church distortions of dogma, causing massive abandonment of the faith. 

Lionel: Cushingism is used to interpret Pope Pius IX and then again with Cushingism Vatican Council II and the Catechism of the Catholic Church was interpreted.This was the ruse of the liberal theologians, supported by the Masons and the magisterium of the popes from Pius XII to Francis.May be some of them were innocently ignorant of the error.However they let it pass.

So 'these statements' are not 'consistent with the understanding of the Church contained in the documents of Vatican II, and the Catechism of the Catholic Church' interpreted with Feeneyism, without the irrational premise, without inferring invisible people are visible excepetions to all needing to be members of the Church for salvation.
Image result for Photos of Fr. Leonard Feeney

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Colin B. Donovan 
“...as well as explaining why the rigorist position of Fr. Feeney (that all must be actual members of the Catholic Church to be saved) has been condemned by the Magisterium.” 
Warren E. Goddard
When Father Leonard Feeney SJ tried to promote acceptance of this obscure dogma, his archbishop led clandestine efforts for his Jesuit dismissal and excommunication. It wasn't until his archbishop died that the Vatican removed the excommunication and restored his priesthood. 
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Colin B. Donovan 
“It is ironic that precisely those who know their obligation to remain united to the Magisterium, and thus on whom this doctrine is morally binding, keep themselves from union with the Roman See on this point.”
Warren E. Goddard


Absurd! Those who have steadfastly defended the Faith, holding "Outside Church No Salvation" dogma as stated, have always remained subject to the Roman Pontiff. Pope Boniface VIII the Bull Unam Sanctam. 
Lionel: The Roman See has adopted the Cushingite theology and so were in heresy. They were contradicting the magisterium of the past, which only know of the theology of Feeneyism.The Letter of the Holy Office 1949 was irrational and a rupture with the past magisterium.It made an objective error when it assumed invisible people were visible exceptions to the Feeneyite interpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
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Warren E. Goddard

Mr. Donovan is undermining the Dogma of Faith; let him be anathema. 

Lionel: He was supporting heresy by using an irrational premise to create a non traditional conclusion, a non traditional interpretation of magisterial documents, which is politically correct with the Left.

Colin B.Donovan's heretical position is held by Raymond Arroyo and the apologists at EWTN.However John Martignoni is an exception on EWTN.He has said that zero cases of something are not exceptions to the dogma EENS.There are no known cases of being saved in invincible ignorance or the baptism of desire. So they are not relevant or exceptions to EENS.

John Martignoni contradicts the apologists on EWTN and Catholic Answers. For Catholic Answers invisible cases are visible exceptions to Tradition.

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Answered by Colin B. Donovan, STL 
Rebutted by Warren E. Goddard
Comments by Lionel 


Outside The Church There Is No Salvation

The doctrine that "Outside the Church there is no salvation" is one that is constantly misinterpreted by those who won't submit to the Magisterium of the Church. Faith does not depend upon our ability to reason to the truth but on our humility before the Truth presented to us by those to whom Christ entrusted that task. This is why the First Vatican Council taught that it is the task of the Magisterium ALONE to determine and expound the meaning of the Tradition - including "outside the Church no salvation."
Concerning this doctrine the Pope of Vatican I, Pius IX, spoke on two different occasions. In an allocution (address to an audience) on December 9th, 1854 he said:
We must hold as of the faith, that out of the Apostolic Roman Church there is no salvation; that she is the only ark of safety, and whosoever is not in her perishes in the deluge; we must also, on the other hand, recognize with certainty that those who are invincible in ignorance of the true religion are not guilty for this in the eyes of the Lord. And who would presume to mark out the limits of this ignorance according to the character and diversity of peoples, countries, minds and the rest?
Again, in his encyclical Quanto conficiamur moerore of 10 August, 1863 addressed to the Italian bishops, he said:
It is known to us and to you that those who are in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion, but who observe carefully the natural law, and the precepts graven by God upon the hearts of all men, and who being disposed to obey God lead an honest and upright life, may, aided by the light of divine grace, attain to eternal life; for God who sees clearly, searches and knows the heart, the disposition, the thoughts and intentions of each, in His supreme mercy and goodness by no means permits that anyone suffer eternal punishment, who has not of his own free will fallen into sin.
These statements are consistent with the understanding of the Church contained in the documents of Vatican II, and the Catechism of the Catholic Church, as well as explaining why the rigorist position of Fr. Feeney (that all must be actual members of the Catholic Church to be saved) has been condemned by the Magisterium. It is ironic that precisely those who know their obligation to remain united to the Magisterium, and thus on whom this doctrine is morally binding, keep themselves from union with the Roman See on this point.

Answered by Colin B. Donovan, STL





FEBRUARY 24, 2012



News444 Top world news : EWTN position paper at odds with authentic Catholic teaching

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/02/news444-top-world-news-ewtn-poition.html


AUGUST 29, 2012



LEFTIST EWTN PUTS OUT A POST IN FAVOUR OF THE FSSP AND CRITICAL OF THE SSPX

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/08/leftist-ewtn-puts-out-post-in-favour-of.html


JULY 4, 2016



How can the Holy Spirit contradict the magisterium of the past and that too with an irrationality? The present two popes and the Vatican Curia need to be in union with the Roman See over the centuries, on this issue

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2016/07/how-can-holy-spirit-contradict.html


JULY 4, 2016

Why Be Catholic? (DVD)

Without the error of the Cushingite theology we are back to the old ecclesiology.There is no Anonymous Christian who is saved outside the Church: Catholic Answers confusion

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2016/07/without-error-of-cushingite-theology-we.html


JUNE 2, 2017

Image result for Photos Cardinal Muller with EWTN world over

We have a Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Vatican who has been teaching error and has been exposed in public and he cannot deny it

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2017/06/we-have-prefect-of-congregation-for.html




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