I am a Catholic.I am not a member of any sect

  Comment

I fear you belong to a sect that has separated itself from the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church founded by Jesus Christ.  You will remember that Jesus said that the gates of hell would never prevail against the Church (see Matthew 16).  I think the scenario that you have bought into is false.  By the way, where did you study theology?  What makes you more expert than the Catholic Church led by its bishops, who are successors of the apostles?  When did the Holy Spirit go on vacation and leave the Church?  Was it with Luther in 1519 or with SSPX or some other groups that has separated itself from the Church founded by Christ?

 Dear ...,

Thank you for your honest comment.

I assure you that I am a Catholic who affirms the Nicene Creed, Vatican Council II, the past catechisms and the Catechism of the Catholic Church(1994) and also extra ecclesiam nulla salus (EENS) as it was interpreted by the missionaries and magisterium of the 16th century. I interpret all these documents with the hermeneutic of continuity. I affirm the baptism of desire, baptism of blood and being saved in invincible ignorance along with Feeneyite EENS.

I affirm the first part of the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 and reject the second part which contradicts the first part.

 I fear you belong to a sect that has separated itself from the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church founded by Jesus Christ.  You will remember that Jesus said that the gates of hell would never prevail against the Church (see Matthew 16). 

Lionel: I agree that the gates of Hell will not prevail against the Church.

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 I think the scenario that you have bought into is false.

Lionel: The difference between you and me is the baptism of desire(BOD) etc.Is the baptism of desire a reference to someone known in the present times(2018) who is saved outside the Church? Can we see or meet someone saved with the baptism of desire or is the baptism of desire only a hypothetical case and if it happened it would be known to God?

This is central to what I am saying.

Does the baptism of desire refer to physically visible or invisible cases for you?

Since if it refers to invisible and unknown people for me, then it is not an exception to the dogma EENS.

I can affirm BOD as being hypothetical and a possibility known only to God and  I can also affirm EENS as it was known over the centuries. It does not have to be either-or. I can have it both ways.

For you BOD is an exception to Feeneyite EENS. So it has to be either-or. You are also inferring that there are known cases of BOD for it to be an exception. This would be irrational. This would also result in the hermeneutic of rupture that Pope Benedict speaks about.

So to reiterate, I am not rejecting the baptism of desire(BOD), baptism of blood(BOB) and being saved in invincible ignorance(I.I) and neither am I rejecting the past ecclesiology of the Church.

I am not a traditionalist or sedevacantist who needs to reject Vatican Council II. Since hypothetical cases in Vatican Council II(LG 16 etc) are not exceptions to Tradition for me.

Neither am I a liberal who accepts Vatican Council II as a rupture with EENS. Again LG 16,LG 8,GS 22,UR 3 etc are not a rupture with EENS

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  By the way, where did you study theology?  What makes you more expert than the Catholic Church led by its bishops, who are successors of the apostles?

Lionel: I have studied the 'official theology' at a 'Catholic'  theological institute.

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  When did the Holy Spirit go on vacation and leave the Church?

Lionel: The Holy Spirit has not left the Church and so we cannot use a false premise to interpret magisterial documents. Invisible for us BOD, BOB and I.I cannot be inferred to be visible exceptions to Feeneyite EENS. 

So for me, unlike you, the exclusivist ecclesiology of the Church is the same before and after Vatican Council II. I am not saying anything new.

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  Was it with Luther in 1519 or with SSPX or some other groups that has separated itself from the Church founded by Christ?

Lionel: I have not separated myself theologically from the Church. I do not use an irrational premise to reject the past salvation theology. I am not promoting a new theology.

So with the past ecclesiology intact for me, there can only be an ecumenism of return and no known salvation outside the Church. This was also the understanding of numerous saints and the past popes.-Lionel Andrades