I affirm the teachings of the Catholic Church before and after Vatican Council II which I interpret with Feeneyite philosophy and theology : it differs from the Cushingite CDF, SSPX, FSSP, F.I etc

FEBRUARY 23, 2015

The dogma says all need to convert for salvation. How can we presume that any one is an exception ?

 

Baptism of Blood, Baptism of Desire and Invincible Ignorance are completely irrelevant to The Church Millitant who do possess the truth and are commanded to teach the truth.

Lionel:

I agree with you when you say that the baptism of desire and blood are not exceptions to the dogma they are irrelevant.So we proclaim the strict interpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus , knowing there are no exceptions and there cannot be any exception for us human beings.

How do you reconcile this with the Catechism of the Catholic Church (1257) saying 'God is not limited to the Sacraments'? This still is the issue in our discussions.

For me it is clear that Cardinal Ratzinger like Cardinal Marchetti did not know of any one who is saved outside the Church. So there cannot be any exception to the Catechism of the Catholic Church 1257 also saying the Church knows of no means to eternal beatitude other than the baptism of water.

 Since Cardinal Marchetti in 1949 assumed that the baptism of desire etc were known to us in personal cases and these persons were saved without the baptism of water, he concluded that there was salvation outside the Church.He did not know of any exception to the dogmatic teaching but inferred there was an exception.This was his mistake.The deceased cannot be exceptions.

So Lumen Gentium  14 and Ad Gentes  7, Vatican Council II  says only those who know need to enter the Church. This statement comes from the Marchetti Inference. It was an irrationality in the Letter of the Holy Office 1949, which he issued. Since the deceased who now in Heaven, cannot be exceptions to the dogma.We cannot name any one in 2015 who is in Heaven without the baptism of water and Catholic Faith.

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If you were simply to post: ENTER, RETURN and STAY as your Battle Cry, everything else gets addressed.

Lionel:

ENTER, RETURN AND STAY!

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If any Catholic tells you, me or anyone that we cannot or must not teach that all must enter, return or stay in the Catholic Church and be baptized with water in order to be saved they are in great need of proper Church catechesis or in very serious sin.

Lionel:

They are also possibily confused with the mistake made in the Letter of the Holy Office 1949.

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We the Church Millitant are commanded and completely embrace the truth that all Catholics must teach to ALL that that they must enter, stay or return to the Catholic Church and that they must have Baptism by water in order to be saved.
 Even if we presumed God forbid, that someone, anyone will be saved by Baptism of Desire, Baptism of Blood or Invincible Ignorance

Lionel:

Here we go again...Why must we presume this? How can we presume something only known to Jesus. The dogma says all need to convert for salvation. How can we presume that any one is an exception ?

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we must tell them, along with all Catholics and non Catholics that they must join the Catholic Church and have baptism by water in order to be saved for that is what Jesus commanded us to do.

Lionel:

Yes.

-Lionel Andrades

https://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2015/02/the-dogma-says-all-need-to-convert-for.html

SUNDAY, FEBRUARY 22, 2015

There are no known exceptions and cannot be any known exception for us, to the Feeneyite interpretation of the dogma.

Close Lionel but you are not quite there yet because you are still in obvious contradiction with yourself.

When you say: " If God chooses to save a person without the Sacraments it would be known only to God and so would not be an explicit exception to the dogma " 

Lionel:

 Since you and others suggest that a person can be saved without the baptism of water so I say that this case would not be exceptionto the dogma since it is not defacto known to us in 2015. This is a hypothethical case for you. This hypothetical case for me would include the baptism of water.

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 you are absolutely correct and then you immediately turn around and contradict yourself when you say: " 

Lionel:

 Yes but then you will say that God is not limited to the Sacraments. Then once again I would have to say that hypothetical cases, with or without the baptism of water, are not exceptions to the dogma. We do not know of any one saved outside the Church, who did not need the baptism of water and is in Heaven this year.

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The experiences of the saints confirm the dogmatic teaching.St. Francis Xavier mentions persons who returned back to the earth after being physically dead, only to be baptised with water.So this is the way God has chosen for all to be saved- the baptism of water in the Catholic Church.

   The two statements are in complete contradiction with each other. The experience of the Saints do not confirm that God MUST baptize with water for as you say correctly "if God chose to save a person without the sacraments it would be known to God only"  You can not have it both ways.

Lionel:

I keeping saying if  God chose to save a person without the Sacraments, only to make the point, that his hypothetical case cannot be an explicit exception to the dogma.I personally believe all need the baptism of water for salvation since this was the dogmatic teaching.So Cardinal Francesco Marchetti Selvaggiani and Cardinal Ratzinger made an objective error.The magisterium made a factual error.The magisterium assumed that people in Heaven are excptions on earth to the dogma . So there was salvation outside the Church for them. How can the dead be visible exceptions in 2015 to the strict interpretation of the dogma? 

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  We can not even imagine the billions of conditions over the last 2000 years that have presented themselves to God at each particular judgement.

Lionel:

Yes.

However we cannot speculate, even though the desire is strong. We cannot assume that someone in particular will go to Heaven without Catholic Faith and the baptism of water.

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  In my weekly visits to the hospital I come into contact with all kinds of situations that give reason to appreciate and leave ludgement  to God. For example I visited a patient with brain cancer about to die who had no religious beliefs and I explained the necessity and beauty of the catholic Church and the necessity for salvation to become Catholic. Although he did not visibly convert to the Catholic Church as far as I know how could we ever know that in his heart and with perfect sorrow he did not pray to God to help him as he was dying?. Neither you nor I could possibly know if this did or did not happen. 

Lionel:

Exactly. Neither can you say anything and we know the dogmatic teaching.

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You would say if he did  make this prayer to God and God welcomed him into Heaven as a Catholic(no exceptions) then you would demand that God had him baptized with water. 

Lionel:

In this particular person's case we cannot say anything.

I mentioned that there were saints who said God sent people back only to be baptised with water. God did not send these people straight to Hell as he would do otherwise.Any way for us this is still a hypothethical case. It was a defacto, explicit case for the saints.

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The Church teaches that we defer this to God with NO reservations, restrictions or council. 

Lionel:

In this individual case I would not judge. Howevetr if there was someone who died as a non Catholic , in general, he is on the way to Hell. If God sends the person back to be baptised, or sends a preacher to him- this is not visible to others, it would be known only to God. In general, God has bound salvation to the Sacraments and there are known exceptions for us, there cannot be any known exception to this teaching for us.

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You must get beyond your position and then what you have undertaken as your life

 struggle in your intense love of our Catholic faith will take root and you will be instrumental in the fight to restore our Catholic Faith.

Lionel:

My posiion is that of the Catholic Church according to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus, the Syllabus of Errors and  Vatican Council II interpreted without the irrational premise. I am affirming the text of Vatican Council II (AG 7,LG 14). The Church's teaching on salvation, before and after Vatican Council II ,is the same for me. There are no known exceptions and cannot be any known exception for us, to the Feeneyite interpretation of the dogma.

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   We the Church Millitant are commanded and completely embrace the truth that all Catholics must teach to ALL that that they must enter, stay or return to  the Catholic Church and that they must have Baptism by water in order to be saved.  

Lionel:

Agreed!

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 Even if we thought God forbid, that someone, anyone could even remotely be saved by Baptism of Desire, Baptism of Blood or Invincible Ignorance we must tell  them that they must join the Catholic Church and have baptism by water in order to be saved for that----------------- is what Jesus commanded us to do.

Lionel:

Yes! Agreed.

-Lionel Andrades

The dogma says all need the baptism of water for salvation. Jesus says the same in John 3:5. While you do not know of any exceptions

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2015/02/message-incomplete-reconcile-your.html

https://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2015/02/there-are-no-known-exceptions-and.html

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FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 20, 2015

The dogma says all need the baptism of water for salvation. Jesus says the same in John 3:5. While you do not know of any exceptions.

 Please reconcile your thinking on the statements of yours below which are contradictory. We can move forward for you are ABSOLUTELY correct in what almost all in the Catholic Church have done to our faith with their evil distortion of Baptism of Desire, Baptism of Blood and Invincible Ignorance as the Church DEMANDS they be understood. If you and I were walking and talking together to Catholics and non Catholics they would ALL be taught without exception that they must enter, return or stay in the Catholic Church and be baptized with water in order to be saved . This command by Jesus and the Church is irrevocable and unchangeable. Having said that your sentences below MUST be explained for they are in opposition to each other...... and yet you hold both positions.
You said:
I accept being saved with invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire. For me they are possibilities known only to God and will ALWAYS be followed with the baptism of water ( This position is False )

Lionel:

Why ? The dogma says all need the baptism of water for salvation. Jesus says the same  in John 3:5. While you do not know of any exceptions. 
and then you turn around and contradict this sentence above when you say:

If God chooses to save a person without the Sacraments it would be known only to God and so would not be an explicit exception to the dogma.( of course they are not an exception to the dogma but you cannot decree that God himself must baptize with water)

Lionel:

The experiences of the saints confirm the dogmatic teaching.St. Francis Xavier mentions persons who returned back to the earth after being  physically dead, only to be baptised with water.So this is the way God has chosen for all to be saved- the baptism of water in the Catholic Church.

and you also agree with Father Faber when he said:"We do not limit the far reaching excesses of His mercy"( but you are telling Father Faber that you, Lionel does limit God's mercies to water only)

Lionel:

Fr.Faber did not use the Marchetti error. He did not say that the baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance are exceptions to exclusive salvation in the Catholic Church.Fr.Frederick Faber held the traditional interpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

You can not have it both ways. This always been your one and only misunderstanding which has distorted your position.

Lionel:

For me all need  Catholic Faith and the baptism of water for salvation and there  are no exceptions. This is the teaching of Vatican Council II (AG 7) when not interpreted with the irrational inference. This is traditional extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

What should be said by you is that God has bound Salvation to the Sacraments of the Catholic Church (Agreed!) and this is an absolute certainty and is the teaching mission of the Church without exception..... (Yes!) but as you mention correctly above you must confirm that God may grant salvation without the sacraments (God could since God is God. However the Holy Spirit teaches us that there is no salvation outside the Church.The Sacraments in the Church are necessary for salvation.  It was because Cardinal Marchetti thought there was salvation outside the Church, this has become a confusing issue for many Catholics)  and without any conditions placed on God.(The dogma and Vatican Council II say there are conditions)  You can not place limits on God's far reaching unknown mercies which are beyond our comprehension. You cannot tell God that he MUST baptize with water in Heaven.( The Catechism of the Catholic Church 1257 says the Church does not know of any means to eternal beatutude other than the baptism of water)

 God is not bound to the Sacraments..( The Catechism of the Catholic Church 1257 says the Church does not know of any means to eternal beatutude other than the baptism of water so God has  bound salvation to Sacramental baptism.)  His mercies are unknown to us AND you can not dictate to God how and in what manner that He uses his mercies to grant salvation. God absolutely did bind us and the Catholic Church as Father Feeney taught that all must enter, return or stay within the Church. (Agreed)  We must do this and once a person dies they are completely and totally in the hands of God where you can not and must not speculate or dictate how God applies his mercies. (The Church tells us in general how God applies his mercy. If there is some one who is saved without the baptism of water you and I would not know about it. )  

-Lionel Andrades


February 20, 2015

I agree with the Church, magisterial documents interpreted without the Marchetti Inference, the irrational premise.I affirm the dogma which is not contradicted by LG 16,LG 8,NA 2, UR 3

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2015/02/i-agree-with-church-magisterial.html

https://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2015/02/message-incomplete-reconcile-your.html

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I agree with the Church, magisterial documents interpreted without the Marchetti Inference, the irrational premise.I affirm the dogma which is not contradicted by LG 16,LG 8,NA 2, UR 3

You even contradict yourself and this is what happens when you use private interpretation and do not listen to he Church.

Lionel:

I agree with the Church, magisterial documents interpreted without the Marchetti Inference, the irrational premise.I affirm the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus which is not contradicted by LG 16,LG 8,NA 2, UR 3 etc. I affirm Vatican Council II (Ad Gentes 7) which says all need faith and baptism for salvation which is not contradicted by (AG 7,LG 14) which also says a person can be saved in invincible ignorance or the baptism of desire.

AG 7 and LG 14 refer to all needing faith and baptism and also mentions those who are saved in invincible ignorance and implicit desire.

I accept being saved with invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire. For me they are possibilities known only to God and will always be followed with the baptism of water.

 

I reject an interpretation of Vatican Council II by 'the Church' when it is inferred that LG 16 etc refer to known cases in the present times.Then it is wrongly concluded that  and there are explicit exceptions to all needing the baptism of water for salvation. This is irrational.This is a break with the magisterium before 1949 and so not part of the Deposit of the Faith.

 

So without the Cardinal Marchetti-Selvaggiani Inference I accept Vatican Council II and the Catechism of the Church in agreement with the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and the Syllabus of Errors.

 

I accept CCC 1257 when it says the Church knows of no means to eternal salvation other than the baptism of water. I reject CCC 1257 when it also says God is not limited to the Sacraments. Since the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and Vatican Council II (AG 7) tell us that God has chosen to limit salvation to the Sacraments in the Catholic Church.

On October 13, 2012 you posted on your own blog:
  Lionel said:
"Those who cannot say that we do not know any case of the baptism of desire or being saved in invincible ignorance have difficulty here.
Those who know that we do not know any exceptions, and that they are irrelevant to the literal interpretation of the dogma, know that this is not an issue.
The baptism of water is the ordinary means of salvation we all agree here.
If God chooses to save a person WITHOUT the Sacraments it would be known only to God. So it does not contradict the ordinary, normal way chosen by God for us to go to Heaven and avoid Hell."

Lionel:

If God chooses to save a person without the Sacraments it would be known only to God and so would not be an explicit exception to the dogma. This was where Marchetti went wrong.So if even if this is mentioned as an arguement, as it is often done, it is meaningless. It is irrelevant to the dogma.This was my point.Vatican Council II suggests this based on the Marchetti inference of there being known salvation outside the Catholic Church.

I personally believe that all who are in Heaven are there with Catholic Faith and the baptism of water. This is the teaching of the Church without the Marchetti inference.

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I along with the Church agree 100 % with your last sentence. You admit that God is not bound by his sacraments. Enough with this "exception" and "Known" nonsense. (I agree . There are no exceptions since there are no known exceptions) The Church has always taught and demands that all must be taught and all must receive baptism by water in order that they may gain salvation. Furthermore the Church teaches that She knows of NO other means other than Baptism of water. This is what we believe and must teach to all. There are no exceptions and of course no one is known who is living that is saved by Baptism of Blood or Baptism of Desire. I have now repeated this way too many times . ( I agree with you here. This is what I have been repeating so many times ) You are stuck in your own mindset and not following Church teaching.

Furthermore just yesterday you said simply that you agree with the words of Father Faber and here we go again today in your denial???(Fr.Faber has not said that the baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance are exceptions to the dogma.His writings precede the 1949 Marchetti mistake).
Father Faber said: "We do not bind God further than he has been pleased to bind himself.(Yes! God has bound salvation to the Sacraments in the Catholic Church.This was the point he made when he mentioned exclusive salvation in the Catholic Church) We do not limit the far reaching excesses of His mercy" You Lionel said "agreed" and now one day later you deny this truth. (I agree with Fr.Faber)

-Lionel Andrades
I accept Vatican Council II and the strict interpretation of the dogma on exclusive salvation in the Church. For me this is what 'the Church ' teaches

 http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2015/02/i-accept-vatican-council-ii-and-strict.html

https://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2015/02/i-agree-with-church-magisterial.html