Lionel,
Respectfully, I don't think Ann, Steve Skojec, David and I spend as much time thinking about baptism of blood, baptism of desire and invincible ignorance as you do.
I note this is not the first time you have used David's - and others - blog to push this, to be frank, incessant repetition. Each time you post on here, it comes back to this topic in some fashion. It's wearying.
Lionel:
Irenaeus the problem is how do we interpret Vatican Council II and extra ecclesiam nulla salus(EENS). Is Vatican Council II a rupture with EENS as it was interpreted by the missionaries in the 16th century?
Secondly, are BOD, BOB and I.I irrelevant to EENS or a rupture with EENS for you ?
This decides if the average Catholic and the present two popes are in heresy and schism.
Since our premise and inference determines our conclusion.
Since our premise and inference determines our conclusion.
BOD, BOB and I.I are at the center of it and so I have to keep repeating it often.
________________________________Ann, Steve Skojec and David clearly think there are more pressing matters than baptisms and invincible ignorance. Look at what they write and speak about. I am no blogger but I am the same way. The Church is in a horrible mess and your topic ranks as very minor on the list of important matters.
Lionel: For the above names and you, and the present two popes, BOD, BOB and I.l are exceptions to EENS and so Vatican Council II is interpreted as a rupture with EENS.
If BOD, BOB and I.I were not exceptions to EENS and Vatican Council II was not a rupture with the past ecclesiology then we are back to Tradition.
Do you think the popes would accept this ?
Would there be a schism?
If the popes accepted this would the German bishops split with the Church ?
Can a pope deny all this and not be in heresy ? Would his Mass not be a sacrilege for him, even if it valid for others ?
I apologize for coming at you like this, but you decided to address me personally and accuse me of interpreting EENS irrationally.
Lionel: It is common for EENS to be interpreted with BOD, BOB and I.I being exceptions.Are you saying that you are a Feeneyite like me who does not interpret BOD,BOB and I.I as exceptions to EENS?
Are you saying that you do not interpret LG 8, LG 16 etc as exceptions to EENS ?
Of course not!
For me you are irrational since BOD, BOB and I.I do not exist in our reality, they are unknown cases. It is the same with LG 8 etc. You have never commented on this point.
_________________________
I do not take to that sort of accusation well.
Lionel. I refer to Catholic doctrine interpreted with a false premise and inference. Please tell me precisely if I am correct or where I am wrong.
_________________________
Not only was that sort of comment uncharitable, I know perfectly well what EENS is, and what it means in the wider scheme of salvation. I may not have been raised on Church doctrine, but that has been rectified.
Lionel: So please tell me if BOD, BOB and I.I are exceptions to EENS or if they are not exceptions to EENS.
Then if they are exceptions to EENS are you saying there are known non Catholics in 2018 saved outside the Church without faith and baptism ?
Are you also saying that there are known non Catholics saved over the years with elements of sanctification and truth(LG 8), invincible ignorance(LG 16) etc , all with or without the baptism of water ?
Or are you a Feeneyite like me ?
It is common for Catholics to interpret BOD, BOB and I.I as being exceptions to EENS. This is how the SSPX interprets it. You have never denied it.
_____________________________
If I may make a suggestion or two ... it is Advent. David has put up some nice music in the sidebar. Perhaps listen to it. I have been doing so here and there and I find it soothing. It might also be a good time to turn over a new leaf with what you write about - it being a new year liturgically, after all.
Lionel: On the day you posted this and before you sent it to Vox Cantoris I placed some of that Chistmas music on my blog.
Best of luck and best of wishes,
In Christ
Lionel
Would there be a schism?
If the popes accepted this would the German bishops split with the Church ?
Can a pope deny all this and not be in heresy ? Would his Mass not be a sacrilege for him, even if it valid for others ?
I apologize for coming at you like this, but you decided to address me personally and accuse me of interpreting EENS irrationally.
Lionel: It is common for EENS to be interpreted with BOD, BOB and I.I being exceptions.Are you saying that you are a Feeneyite like me who does not interpret BOD,BOB and I.I as exceptions to EENS?
Are you saying that you do not interpret LG 8, LG 16 etc as exceptions to EENS ?
Of course not!
For me you are irrational since BOD, BOB and I.I do not exist in our reality, they are unknown cases. It is the same with LG 8 etc. You have never commented on this point.
_________________________
I do not take to that sort of accusation well.
Lionel. I refer to Catholic doctrine interpreted with a false premise and inference. Please tell me precisely if I am correct or where I am wrong.
_________________________
Not only was that sort of comment uncharitable, I know perfectly well what EENS is, and what it means in the wider scheme of salvation. I may not have been raised on Church doctrine, but that has been rectified.
Lionel: So please tell me if BOD, BOB and I.I are exceptions to EENS or if they are not exceptions to EENS.
Then if they are exceptions to EENS are you saying there are known non Catholics in 2018 saved outside the Church without faith and baptism ?
Are you also saying that there are known non Catholics saved over the years with elements of sanctification and truth(LG 8), invincible ignorance(LG 16) etc , all with or without the baptism of water ?
Or are you a Feeneyite like me ?
It is common for Catholics to interpret BOD, BOB and I.I as being exceptions to EENS. This is how the SSPX interprets it. You have never denied it.
_____________________________
If I may make a suggestion or two ... it is Advent. David has put up some nice music in the sidebar. Perhaps listen to it. I have been doing so here and there and I find it soothing. It might also be a good time to turn over a new leaf with what you write about - it being a new year liturgically, after all.
Lionel: On the day you posted this and before you sent it to Vox Cantoris I placed some of that Chistmas music on my blog.
Best of luck and best of wishes,
In Christ
Lionel
Posts
No comments:
Post a Comment