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You are not precise with words.
I did not say there
were no literal cases.(Lionel: So are you saying there are literal cases in 2019 or the last 50 years, which you know of ?) The Church says there are literal cases (the liberals in the Church say it and so do the Lefebvrists) with St
Emerentiana and the early martyrs (the liberals and Lefbvrists say it. No one on earth could have seen someone in Heaven saved without the baptism of water). You will say they got the water
somehow, mysteriously, and I concede that only God could know that.(Agreed
every one who is in Heaven is there with Catholic faith and the baptism
of water. St. Francis Xavier says that there were un-baptised people
who died and God sent them back to earth, to him, only to be baptized
with water). But I
do not say it happened that way because the Church honors them as
catechumens and Trent anathematizes any one who says one cannot be saved
by a desire for baptism(No
one on earth can say that a particular person has been saved with the
baptism of desire.Since by its very nature a baptism of desire case can
only be known to God. It is invisible for us. We cannot give someone the
baptism of desire.The Council of Trent only refers to 'the desire
theorof'. It could only be hypothetical.The liberal theologians and the
Lefbrists inferred that it was not hypothetical and then supported the
New Theology ,which says outside the Church there is salvation.)
Your err once again as you hold the
character is an absolute necessity for salvation,(I
do not know what you mean by character. However I do know it is a
hypothesis. It is something theoretical in your mind. It is not a
practical exception to EENS in the present times.Necessity of means etc
according to the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 is a decoy. When there
are no known cases of BOD, BOB and I.I how can we decide if there is a
necessity of means or precept.) but cannot point to a
single teaching from any Pope, saint, Doctor, catechism or council which
teaches this novelty.(I
do not know what you mean by character. But I do know that for all the
popes, saints , Doctors of the Church, Catechisms and Church Councils
before Pius XII the baptism of desire referred to only a hypothetical
case.It was a precept.
It was imaginary.It was hoped for with good will.
It was not a personally known person saved outside the Church. This was
common sense. They did not have to elaborate on it. ) And you erroneously invoke EENS as your defense,
and this reveals your second error which holds that a hypothetical case
of salvation by BOD would be an exception to EENS.(
I am affirming EENS according to the popes, saints ,Doctors of the
Church, Catechisms and Church Councils before Pope Pius XII.This was the
dogma defined by three Church Councils. It does not mention any
personally known cases of BOD, BOB and I.I. So I am not saying any thing
new.) This goes back to
your root error that the baptismal character is an absolute necessity
for salvation, even though it is not a necessity at all, relative or
absolute, for salvation.(I
have mentioned before, that if the 'baptismal charachter' is necessary
or not necessary, it is still a theoretical construct, in our minds.It
is a precept and precepts cannot be living examples of salvation outside
the Church. The precept, either way, cannot be a practical and
objective exception to EENS for example in 2019. It is not an actual
person saved as such. So either way it makes no difference with
reference to EENS.) That is why you cannot reconcile in your mind
the nearly 2000 years of teaching on BOD.(You
agreed with me when I said BOD, BOB and I.I refer to hypothetical cases
only.Now you are having doubts? You could not have met someone saved
outside the Church with BOD, near where you live? Of course not. Then
you are also saying still, I assume, that all need faith and baptism
for salvation(AG 7, LG 14).
So we agree. Welcome to the Feeneyite camp.All the popes, saints,
Doctors of the Church, Catechisms and Church Councils before Pius XII
were Feeneyite-they did not project BOD, BOB and I.I as referring to
personally known non Catholics saved outside the Church.They affirmed
the dogma EENS and hypothetical only BOD,BOB and I.I. There were no
literal exceptions to EENS for them.
So there were no exceptions to EENS for them.This was the mistake
during the pontificate of Pope Pius XII. The error was perhaps there
earlier. Indications are that the mistake was there are at the time of
the Baltimore Catechism.
The error was accepted by Archbishop Lefebvre, Cardinal
Ottaviani, Michael Davies and the traditionalists of their time,for
whom BOD, BOB and I.I were exceptions to EENS. Then they made the same
mistake in their interpretation of Vatican Council II. LG 8, LG 14, LG
16, UR 3, NA 2, GS 22 etc are exceptions to EENS for them.
The error can
be read on line in one of the Letters to Friends and Benefactors
written by Bishop Bernard Fellay.For him UR 3 was an exception to
EENS.You do agree that UR 3 refers to a hypothetical case only ?)
Unless you can show us
where the Church teaches that the baptismal character is an absolute
necessity for salvation (without regard to EENS which is not relevant to
that particular question), you will have proven me right once again.
(Why do you say without reference to EENS, which was defined by three
Church Councils and says that the baptism of water and Catholic faith
within the Catholic Church is necessary for all for salvation?
Where does the Church teach that the baptism of water is necessary for salvation ?
Let us begin with the Catechism of the Catholic Church n.1257. The Necessity of Baptism.
1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is
necessary for salvation. He also commands his disciples to proclaim the
Gospel to all nations and to baptize them. Baptism is necessary for
salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have
had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not
know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal
beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has
received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn
of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.
The Church does not
know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal
beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has
received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn
of water and the Spirit."
The same message is there in the Catechism of Pope Pius X.
The Catechism of Pope St. Pius X, The Sacraments, “Baptism,” Q. 16: “Q. Is Baptism necessary to salvation? A. Baptism is absolutely necessary to salvation, for Our Lord has expressly said: ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.’”
So
the two Catechism are saying de facto, practically, in real life all
need the baptism of water for salvation. There are no known exceptions
since the baptism of desire etc refer to an invisible case in real life
and so cannot be an exception.
If
someone is saved without the baptism of water and with the baptism of
desire because 'God is not limited to the Sacraments' or because of 'the
necessity of means',invincible ignorance or martrydom without the
baptism of water- or some other factor,they would only be known to God
if they were exceptions. The norm for salvation is the baptism of
water. The norm is not the baptism of desire etc.There are also no
practical exceptions known of the baptism of desire etc.
So
the Catechisms are saying that the baptism of water is necessary for
salvation.Vatican Council II also says that all need faith and baptism
for salvation(AG 7) and we do not know any one who could be an exception
since he could have been saved in invincible ignorance etc.You cannot
say that a particular person whom you know today will be saved outside
the Church. Neither can you say that someone outside the Church, whom
you know, and who has died recently or in the past, is in Heaven without
faith and baptism.
The
Church tells us that all non Catholics who have died without the
baptism of water and Catholic faith are oriented to Hell.(CCC 1257, Ad
Gentes 7, Vatican Council II, Cantate Domino Council of Florence 1441
etc).-Lionel Andrades
BOD(the unknown case of someone saved with the Baptism of Desire).
BOB(the unknown case of someone saved with the Baptism of Blood(Martrydom) and without the baptism of water) .
I.I( the unknown case of someone saved outside the Church in Invincible Ignorance).
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