Discussion with a Carmelite priest

  

I had an interesting discussion yesterday with a Carmelite priest at their church near the Vatican.

He wanted to know why I say outside the Church there is no salvation.So I cited Vatican Council II ( AG 7, LG 14) and the Catechism of the Catholic Church ( 845,846).

I explained that LG 8, 14 and 16, UR 3, NA 2, GS 22 etc refer to physically invisible cases in 2023. So they could not be practical exceptions for AG 7, LG 14, CCC 845,846 etc.

The Council is only Feeneyite and not Cushingite. Vatican Council II is traditional for me.So based upon Vatican Council II,  I say extra ecclesiam nulla salus (EENS).

We agreed that there was only one Revelation and no new revelation. So LG 8,14 and 16, UR 3, NA 2, GS 22 etc interpreted irrationally was a not a new revelation in the Church. It could not contradict the dogma EENS.There are no physically visible examples of salvation outside the Church for us human beings. So the Council is not ‘ a new revelation’ or 'a revolution'.

A lot of this was new for him. He had a doctorate and no one had told him about all this.

This was also the teachings of the popes and saints over the centuries. It is now supported by Vatican Council II and the Catechism of the Catholic Church.They are supported by the Conciliar Church, the post-Vatican Council II Church, only when Vatican Council II is interpreted rationally and  not irrationally.

WHEN I MEET A HINDU OR BUDDHIST

 So I told him that when I meet a Hindu or Buddhist I know he or she is oriented to Hell without ‘faith and baptism’ (AG 7, LG 14, CCC 845,846, 1257 etc).This is what the Catholic Church teaches in its Magisterial Documents.These are the Documents before and after Vatican Council II. So this is not just a personal view. It can be verified with Church Documents.

I could provide references. However those who say that outside the Church there is salvation cannot do so. They can only cite Vatican Council II if they confuse invisible cases as being visible.

The Catholic Church in its Magisterial Documents today teaches that other religions are not paths to salvation.

 However, from what has been stated above about the mediation of Jesus Christ and the “unique and special relationship”‌⁸⁴ which the Church has with the kingdom of God among men - which in substance is the universal kingdom of Christ the Saviour - it is clear that it would be contrary to the faith to consider the Church as one way of salvation alongside those constituted by the other religions, seen as complementary to the Church or substantially equivalent to her, even if these are said to be converging with the Church toward the eschatological kingdom of God.-  Dominus Iesus n.21, 2000, Pope John Paul II

 

If it is true that the followers of other religions can receive divine grace, it is also certain that objectively speaking they are in a gravely deficient situation in comparison with those who, in the Church, have the fullness of the means of salvation.- Dominus Iesus n.22.

Pope John Paul II also said in Dominus Iesus that other religions have errors, superstition and deficiencies.They are not an equal path to salvation as the Catholic Church.

Dominus Iesus also says that salvation is open for all, it is universal, in potential, but membership in the Church is also necessary for salvation. The institutional Church is  necessary.

Cardinal Ratzinger said that the members of other religions are oriented to the Catholic Church (CDF, Notification on Fr. Jacques Dupuis sj, 2001 during the pontificate of Pope John Paul II).Nostra Aetate 4 says Catholics are the new people of God.

 They are the elect. They are the new Chosen People. They have the Messiah promised by the Jewish prophets.

So when I read the Catechisms, I am told that non Christians will be lost forever to Hell unless they accept Jesus in the Catholic Church ( Catechism of Pope Pius X (24 Q, 27Q),Catechism of the Catholic Church ( 845,846,1257).

Most people on earth are going to Hell is the constant teaching of the Catholic Church. Jesus said enter through the narrow gate for the road to Hell is wide and most people take it (Matthew 7:13-14).

Jesus told Louisa Piccaretta that most people go to Hell.Most people are damned.

This was also the teaching of the Carmelite saints. St. Teresa of Avila said Lutherans are going to Hell.

The Orthodox Christian Church does not accept Catholic teachings and Sacraments. For them we are in schism. We did not discuss this subject yesterday.

I told this good Carmelite priest that I accept Pope Francis’ Fratelli Tutti and I love non Catholics and non Christians because this is what Jesus asks of us.

I support inter-religious dialogue and ecumenism.I would interpret Vatican Council II and the Creeds, Catechisms and Councils, rationally. So dialogue would be part of the traditional mission of the Catholic Church.This is recommended by Pope John Paul II in Dominus Iesus.

 It would be mission for me, which would not only be Christocentric but also ecclesiocentric. It would be traditional mission of the 16th century missionaries based upon there being exclusive salvation in only the Catholic Church and supported by Vatican Council II.

I say all this in Rome where there is a Concordat.The Catholic religion has a historical and special status. This is a Catholic country.It's Constitution allows the freedom of religious worship and expression for Catholics.

I am affirming the Magisterium of the Catholic Church.This is the Magisterium  according to Church Documents and Church teachings of the popes up to John Paul II and Benedict XVI. Pope Francis denies the dogma EENS, when he interprets Vatican Council II irrationally. So he has changed the interpretation of the Creeds. This is first class heresy according to Ad Tuendem Fidem of Pope John Paul II.

Pope John Paul II was  Magisterial in Ecclesia di Eucharestia when he stated that Orthodox Christians who do not accept the Catholic pope should not receive the Eucharist. He was saying that outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation. This is also the message of Vatican Council II (AG 7, LG 14) I repeat.

Pope Francis and the cardinals and bishops would be Magisterial on Vatican Council II only when they interpret the Council rationally. They are irrational presently.

When they interpret the Creeds, Councils and Catechisms irrationally they are not magisterial. Instead they are heretical and schismatic. This is a mortal sin of faith.

They are also unethical when they choose an irrational premise (invisible people are visible, LG 16 refers to a visible non Catholic saved outside the Church), irrational inference (LG 8, 14, 16 etc are visible examples of salvation outside the Church and so are objective exceptions for the dogma EENS) and  non-traditional conclusion (Vatican Council II is a rupture with Tradition, EENS, original interpretation of the Creeds etc). 

I am ethical when I choose a rational premise (invisible people are invisible, LG 16 refers to an invisible non Catholic saved outside the Church), irrational inference (LG 8, 14, 16 etc are invisible examples of salvation outside the Church and so are non objective. Invisible cases cannot be practical exceptions for the dogma EENS. I choose the rational and  non-traditional conclusion (Vatican Council II is not a rupture with Tradition ( EENS, original interpretation of the Creeds etc).It has the hermeneutic of continuity with the Fourth Lateran Council II ( 1215) and the Council of Florence (1442)  which defined the dogma EENS.

- Lionel Andrades