A Catholic Forum in Los Angeles has carried reports which appeal to the Archbishop of Los Angeles saying that the baptism of desire was not known to us and it did not contradict the text of the dogma extra eclesiam nulla salus. Neither did it contradict the interpretation of Fr. Leonard Feeney. There was an appeal for a Catholic religious community of Fr. Leonard Feeney in Los Angeles to be recognized by the Archdiocese. An injustice is being done to this community because of their Catholic religious beliefs.
The reports ask that the many Catholic religious communities in the Archdiocese also be allowed to proclaim the literal interpretation of the dogma outside the church no salvation and at the same time also affirm implicit baptism of desire. Implicit baptism of desire obviously was not an exception to the teaching that everyone needs to convert into the Church for salvation.
Pope Pius XII referred to this 'dogma' in the Letter of the Holy Office 1949.The dogma specifically mentions that all Jews (in Los Angeles and elsewhere) need to convert into the Church to avoid the fires of Hell.
It may be mentioned that Rabbis in Los Angeles had a meeting with the former Archbishop of Los Angeles a few years back who assured them that there would be no mission to the Jews. Here is a post on the forum.(1)
-Lionel Andrades
1.
LARoberts:
A review of Lionel's postings reveals a few things.
First most postings refer you to his own Blog. Hardly an unbiased source. His Blog distorts facts, at times they are simply based on nothing but Lione's own vivid imagination. An example being the mix of a few words of Lumen Gentium with editorialsim which I don't think Lionel is capable of writing.
Secondly, his postings are not based on reality. Catholicism dot org is the website of one small group of former followers of the late Fr. Leonard Feeney. Fr. Feeney was taken to task by not only the Archbishop of Boston (Later Cardinal Archbishop Cushing) but the Holy Office which at that time was headed by none other than Pope Pius XII, who himself taught to the entire Church the proper interpretation of Extra Ecclesia Nulla Salus.
Lionel:
By proper interpretation he means that we have to accept that the baptism of desire is known to all of us, these cases are visible and so they are exceptions to the rigorist interpretation of the dogma. So Fr. Leonard Feeney was wrong because we can know cases of the baptism of desire in Heaven. No where does Pope Pius XII or any magisterial document make these claims.
LARoberts
It is a far cry from the rigorist misinterpretation of the constant teaching of the Church held by Lionel and others who proclaim themselves to know more than the Church, and judge the Church as in error for not following Fr. Feeney's teachings. The sisters at Catholic dot org were received back into full communion with the Church under the condition that they agree that Baptism of Blood and Baptism or Desire, as well as Invincible Ignorance were valid teachings of the Church.
Lionel: ‘The sisters at Catholic.org were received back into full communion with the Church under the condition that they agree that Baptism of Blood and Baptism or Desire, as well as Invincible Ignorance were valid teachings of the Church.’ They agree that they are valid teachings of the Church. They would also agree that no Church teaching considers them exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. Rationality also tells us that we do not know any such case. I have already explained this in another post on the Forum.
The website Catholicism.org, another community of Fr. Leonard Feeney, has also placed a definition of the baptism of desire on its website. So in principle they accept the baptism of desire as a possibility under certain conditions and circumstances.
It’s the Jewish Left media which says that they don’t accept the baptism of desire as if the baptism of desire is a defacto, visible exception to the dogma.
LARoberts
While the Church has not formally and Dogmatically defined EENS,
Lionel:
Really, the Church has not formally and dogmatically defined extra ecclesiam nulla salus ?
I have mentioned on the forum that Pope Pius XII referred to ‘the dogma’, the ‘infallible’ teaching.(Letter of the Holy Office 1949/Denzinger etc). The text of the dogma has been known for centuries. It has been quoted in the Council of Trent too. The saints and the popes have repeated…
LARoberts
and the Sisters who have posted the website accept this, Lionel tries to distort the facts.
More distortions by Lionel. It would seem that he spends most of his time trolling around Catholic and Non-Catholic websites posting, being banned for refusing to follow forum rules, (Many Catholic blogs and forums do not allow the discussion of EENS because of the damage caused by Feeneyites who distort Catholic teachings and promote fights on their sites.) Lionel and others like him feel that since they have a special truth that nobody, including the Pope adheres to, they are exempt from the forum rules.
Lionel:
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus is the official teaching of the Catholic Church supported by the popes, Councils and Vatican Council II. It is not a personal teaching. Nor is it a personal teaching of Fr.Leonard Feeney and his communities.
LARoberts:
Even though Lionel has been informed that groups like the Slaves in Los Angeles who were originally a mission of the sisters who own Catholics dot org when they were excommunicated, were not received into the Church with them, nor are they still a part of the now Catholic group, but the still non-canonical group in New Hampshire, he continues to disseminate and distort facts.
Lionel:
I am not a member of those groups though I sympatize with them. I am affirming the dogma in accord with Vatican Council II and the baptism of desire. I do not deny the baptism of desire or Vatican Council II. Since the baptism of desire is always implicit it is not an exception to the dogma. Ad Gentes 7 is also in agreement with outside the church there is no salvation. Lumen Gentium 16 (invincible ignorance/good conscience) does not contradict Ad Gentes 7,Vatican Council II.These are teachings relevant to all Catholics and not just any particular community of Fr.Leonard Feeney.
LARoberts:
It would seem that for Lionel, the ends justifies the means. If he needs to disorient people by his postings which distort the facts, and play a game of slight of hand by seeming to refer to authentically Catholic documents and decrees like Lumen Gentium, but place his own spin on it, not distinguishing what is part of the authentic teaching of the Church, and what is his own rant, no real, honest discussion can take place.
Lionel:
I am able to quote magisterial texts to support my traditional view of the dogma. It is difficult for those who oppose church teachings to do the same. No Church document claims that the baptism of desire is known to us in particular cases and so it contradicts the dogma. One has to assume it and then claim that this was the true teaching of the Church referred to in the Letter of the Holy Office. Cases of the baptism of desire visible to us in Heaven!
LARoberts:
Albert Einstein, who Lionel would tell us is now burning in hell because he was not a member of the Catholic Church in life, once said, "A man should look for what is, and not for what he thinks should be."
Lionel:
Albert Einstein if he was a non Catholic , according to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus Vatican Council II ( Ad Gentes 7, Lumen Gentium 14), Dominus Iesus 20, Mark 16:16, John 3:5 needed to convert into the Catholic Church at the time of death. The official teaching of the Catholic Church for centuries has been that all need to enter the Church Jesus' Mystical Body, for salvation. There are no known exceptions.
LARoberts:
The fact is what Lionel claims is a Dogmatic teaching of the Catholic Church is not, and what the Church authentically teaches is distorted by Lionel potentially causing the loss of souls to what the Church does in fact teach.
Lionel:
We have to distinguish between what is the Church teachings according to the magisterial texts and the statements of the popes, Church Fathers and saints and what is the teaching, for Catholics, according to the Jewish Left media and political institutions which are strong in Los Angeles.
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