BAPTISM OF DESIRE AND BEING SAVED IN INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE ARE NOT EXCEPTIONS TO ANYTHING.THEY COULD JUST BE REFERRED TO BY THEIR NAME.

I am not saying that I know any one in Heaven saved with the baptism of desire or invincible ignorance.I am saying that it is possible that a person can be saved ininvincible ignorance and the baptism of desire and this would be known only to God.

The Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary say there can be no exceptions to the dogma. I agree.

There can be no exceptions to the dogma, since even if there were ( and I am not saying there are), we would not know about them.We cannot know them. We cannot say there were two cases of the baptism of desire this year and neither can we say there were not.We dion't know.So these cases are irrelevant to the literal interpretation of the dogma.-L.A

Here follows a dialogue on this blog with a friend of the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, Still River, Mass.,USA.

Anonymous

You present a modification of the Dogma of extra ecclesiam that appears to admit exceptions;

Lionel:

It will appear so if you do not make the distinction between in principle and in fact, implicit and explicit.

So when I say that there are no exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus I mean there are no known exceptions. I use the words known, explicit and defacto. The Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary do not use these terms to explain their position.

When I ask if there are known exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus, no one answer. Since obviously they are confused.

You consider it 'a modification'.Inspite of so many posts on this blog which would say otherwise.

Anonymous:

however, you claim that the exception is not an exception

Lionel:
Please do not use the word 'exception' loosely.

Are you speaking about 'exceptions' in principle (known only to God) or 'exceptions' in fact (known to us on earth).Are you speaking about implicit desire in in principle or implicit desire as a personally known fact on earth in special cases.

: We cannot know an 'exception'. This is certain. Exceptions are always known to God.This is a fact. We do not know any case.

There is no choice. Even if we wanted to know an exception saved we cannot.

When the Church declares someone a saint we accept it. Otherwise we cannot know who is saved in Heaven with the baptism of desire etc.

So only in principle can the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary admit that there is implicit desire followed by the baptism of water, for someone who is saved with this 'exception'.There is no choice.The baptism of desire, invincible ignorance( exceptions) etc always refers to something in principle.

Anonymous:

I can assure you, your modification does not accord with what Fr. Feeney taught, which is that there is no soul in Heaven who did not first enter the Church while on Earth.

Lionel:

I have mentioned numerous times on this blog that the ordinary means of salvation is Catholic Faith and the baptism of water (AG 7).In other words no soul goes to Heaven without first entering the Church while on earth with Catholic Faith and the baptism of water.

I hold to the 'rigorist interpretation' of extra ecclesiam nulla salus as did Fr.Leonard Feeney and I believe this is the official teaching of the Catholic Church according to magisterial texts including Vatican Council II.

Anonymous:

After claiming that your modification is consonant with the Slaves (which it is not),

Lionel:

You will have to specify what you mean by 'modification'. I have mentioned that the 'exceptions' can only be accepted in principle. This is a fact of life. We cannot see the dead saved in invincible ignorance.So there are no known exceptions.

This is an objective observation and not a personal opinion or theology.

Anonymous:

you proceed to tie the Slaves to Vatican II by further claiming that your modification is consonant with Vatican II.

Lionel:

In principle I accept that persons can be saved in invincible ignorance(LG 16), seeds of the word (AG 11)etc.

I know that these cases cannot be known explicitly.So they are not exceptions to anything.

Perhaps for you and some or all of the members of the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary these exceptions are explicit and considered known in the present time. So you reject these exceptions.

We cannot see the dead saved with the baptism of desire then we cannot see the dead saved mentioned in Vatican Council II.

The Council does not say that the 'exceptions' are known and so contradict the dogma.The Council does not mention exceptions. The Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary in Still River assume they are 'exceptions'.

Can you cite any known exception in Vatican Council II to the dogma?

For you the baptism of desire is an exception to the dogma because you assume that we know cases of the baptism of desire in the present time? Only if you knew these cases would they be exceptions?

The basic question not being answered is :Can the baptism of desire etc be an exception to the literal interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus?

Anonymous:

Are you willing to say that, in accordance with the ex cathedra teaching, "No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church"?

Lionel:
Yes!

Anonymous:

This means there is no one, "known or unknown," to borrow your construct, who is in Heaven who didn't die in the Church.

Lionel:

There is no one known who didn't die in the Church and who was saved.

Neither of us knows about the 'unknown' cases.

I repeat: in principle, the ordinary means of salvation according to the Catholic Church is Catholic Faith and the baptism of water (AG 7). The Church is the ordinary means of salvation (Redemptoris Missio 55).Salvation is open to all in principle but to receive it one needs to enter the Church.(Dominus Iesus 20) etc.

Anonymous:

If you do not admit that, then you are not in agreement with the Slaves, and you are wrong to pretend that you are. God bless you. 

Lionel:
 Now that I have admitted accepting the dogma in the literal interpretation according to Tradition and Fr.Leonard Feeney could you please tell me if the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary know any one saved with the baptism of desire who is 'an exception' to the literal interpretation of Fr.Leonard Feeney?

Can the baptism of desire/implicit desire with the baptism of water, be an exception to the dogma or even relevant to the dogma?

Anonymous:

Let's take a simple declarative statement.

"There exists in Heaven a soul who died outside the Church."

The statement is either true or false.

Lionel:

There exists in Heaven a soul who died outside the Church!

How would you know ?

How would you know either way if there exists or there does not exist ?

This is what I have been saying all this time.

Implicit salvation is always unknown to us.

A possibility is not a reality.

So when Cantate Domino, Council of Florence 1441 was defined they knew about implicit desire and being saved (implicitly) in invincible ignorance. They had read the Church Fathers.

They knew that implicit desire did not contradict the literal interpretation of Cantate Domino. It did not violate the Principle of Non Contradiction.

So the baptism of desire etc in this sense it irrelevant to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

If there exists or does not exist in Heaven a soul who died outside the Church has no bearing on the dogmatic teaching in Cantate Domino. It does not contradict the dogma.

Anonymous:

I am certain that the Slaves and Fr. Feeney would say "false." I certainly say "false."

Lionel:

You would say false since you assume that those saved with the baptism of desire etc, without the Sacraments (CCC 1257) would be concrete cases,known to us and since then they would be known exceptions to Cantate Domino, you must reject it.

Anonymous:

Dogma is God's revealed truth, and must be true both for Him and for us.

Lionel:

Yes. For centuries the Church taught the dogma on salvation along with implicit baptism of desire etc and there was no contradiction. The contradiction came in the 1940s with explictly known baptism of desire etc.

Anonymous:

If God saves even one soul outside the Church, then He cannot bind us to the dogma, for that would violate truth.

Lionel:
Theologically I accept that all who are in Heaven are Catholics.

The manner God chooses to save a soul is known only to Him.

For instance someone could die without the baptism of water and God could not condemn him. Instead he could send him or her back to earth to be baptized by the saints. This has been the experience of St.Francis Xavier etc.

Anonymous:

If God saves even one soul outside the Church, then He cannot bind us to the dogma, for that would violate truth.

Lionel:

Even if he did or did not- what bearing does it have on the truth ?

The truth is that every one on earth needs Catholic Faith and the baptism of water for salvation .(AG 7, Cantate Domino, CCC 846 etc).

If God chooses to save one soul outside the Church, God being God, how does it cancel the dogmatic teaching? Since, you would not know of this case,anyway.

For the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary those saved with the baptism of desire (followed with the baptism of water) are known cases to us and so are 'exceptions'.-Lionel Andrades