What you don't (won't ?) understand is that BOB or BOD without BOW is not an exception to EENS
Lionel:
We have discussed this extensively on Twitter.Finally you could not say that you know someone in the present times, who is in Heaven without faith and the baptism of water.
You cannot name any one.
So still you cannot name an exception, someone whom you can physically see on earth who is in Heaven without the baptism of water.I repeat I refer to a literal case, something physical and not some theology or theory.
So I agree that there are no exceptions in the present times, none whom we can see or meet. This is also the position, I assume of Bishop Donald Sanborn and Fr.Anthony Cekada.
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When you speak of nonsense such as "in the flesh" exceptions we can see today, you come off sounding even more unbalanced
Lionel:
I have to keep reminding many people that the baptism of desire(BOD) and Baptism of blood(BOD)cases, would be in Heaven. So they would not be seen on earth. So they could not be exceptions to EENS.They are zero cases on earth. They are invisible for us humans.
Since you criticise Fr. Leonard Feeney and support Cardinal Marchetti I have to remind you that BOD and BOB cases cannot be seen in the flesh to be relevant to the dogma.When you criticise Fr.Feeney you infer that the dead-saved are visible and meaningful for you, with respect to the dogma.
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Who decided St. E was in Heaven? The Church who declared her a saint!
Lionel:
Yes she is a saint and she is in Heaven. But who decided that she is in Heaven without the baptism of water?Did this unknown person have the gift to see and meet her in Heaven and confirm that she was an exception to the dogmatic teaching?
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Please! Feeney wasn't around for centuries, was he?
Lionel:
Feeneyism has been the offical teaching of the Catholic Church for centuries.
BOD and BOB allegedly without BOW, originated in the 1940's.
In the past, for centuries BOB and BOD were accepted but were separated from the dogma. They were not considered explicit exceptions in the present times to EENS.
-Lionel Andrades
Lionel:
We have discussed this extensively on Twitter.Finally you could not say that you know someone in the present times, who is in Heaven without faith and the baptism of water.
You cannot name any one.
So still you cannot name an exception, someone whom you can physically see on earth who is in Heaven without the baptism of water.I repeat I refer to a literal case, something physical and not some theology or theory.
So I agree that there are no exceptions in the present times, none whom we can see or meet. This is also the position, I assume of Bishop Donald Sanborn and Fr.Anthony Cekada.
_________________
When you speak of nonsense such as "in the flesh" exceptions we can see today, you come off sounding even more unbalanced
Lionel:
I have to keep reminding many people that the baptism of desire(BOD) and Baptism of blood(BOD)cases, would be in Heaven. So they would not be seen on earth. So they could not be exceptions to EENS.They are zero cases on earth. They are invisible for us humans.
Since you criticise Fr. Leonard Feeney and support Cardinal Marchetti I have to remind you that BOD and BOB cases cannot be seen in the flesh to be relevant to the dogma.When you criticise Fr.Feeney you infer that the dead-saved are visible and meaningful for you, with respect to the dogma.
__________________
Who decided St. E was in Heaven? The Church who declared her a saint!
Lionel:
Yes she is a saint and she is in Heaven. But who decided that she is in Heaven without the baptism of water?Did this unknown person have the gift to see and meet her in Heaven and confirm that she was an exception to the dogmatic teaching?
__________________
Please! Feeney wasn't around for centuries, was he?
Lionel:
Feeneyism has been the offical teaching of the Catholic Church for centuries.
BOD and BOB allegedly without BOW, originated in the 1940's.
In the past, for centuries BOB and BOD were accepted but were separated from the dogma. They were not considered explicit exceptions in the present times to EENS.
-Lionel Andrades
Posts
2 comments:
IAAD said:
"What you don't (won't ?) understand is that BOB or BOD without BOW is not an exception to EENS"
This is an absolutely 100% correct statement. What almost all have done within the Catholic Church is to extrapolate that a person can be saved outside the Catholic Church and there is no longer the need to remain, convert or return to the Catholic Church in order to be saved. We have reduced, No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church to a meaningless formula. Even if a person might be saved by BOB or BOD even they must be taught that there is No Salvation outside the Catholic Church. period!
In Christ,
George Brenner
This is an absolutely 100% correct statement.
Lionel:
Yes but he is coming to this conclusion by assuming that BOD and BOB cases are known in the present times.
This is false.
He has some theoretical constuct,which makes him imagine that BOD and BOB are not exceptions to EENS and at the same time he says there is known salvation outside the Church. So St. Emerentiana was saved without the baptism of water and with BOB but she is not an exception! And yes he holds traditional EENS and also the possibility of St.E. being saved without baptism of water.
This is double speak.
It is common among the traditionalists like the SSPX,too.
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What almost all have done within the Catholic Church is to extrapolate that a person can be saved outside the Catholic Church and there is no longer the need to remain, convert or return to the Catholic Church in order to be saved.
Lionel:
Yes this is the error being made by him and other sedevacantists.They want to have it both ways but with irrationality.
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We have reduced, No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church to a meaningless formula.
Lionel:
Yes it is like this for them. It is also magisterial after 1949. So we cannot really blame these lay people. They are innocent in a way.
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Even if a person might be saved by BOB or BOD even they must be taught that there is No Salvation outside the Catholic Church. period!
Lionel:
Yes.
And that we do not know of a BOB and BOD exception in the present times. Here we can all agree since it is common knowledge.
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