The Archbishop of Boston Cardinal Cushing was in manifest heresy and the pope supported it and the sedevacantists have accepted it.

IAAD has posted another comment to which I respond here.

Introibo Ad Altare Dei November 13, 2015

VICTORY!! NOT ONE CITATION!

This disposes of Lionel Andrades once and for all!

Lionel:

Here are the citations.I repèat them.

'A sedevacantist is saying I am outside the Church when I affirm the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus, hypothetical and invisible for us baptism of desire and baptism of blood and a Vatican Council II in which LG 16 etc refer to invisible and not visible cases ? Which teaching have I rejected? You instead reject Vatican Council and invisible for us and known only to God BOD and BOB.For you BOD and BOB are explicit and so you reject the defined dogma EENS. So this is also a rejection of the dogma on the infallibility of the pope ex cathedra.You have also changed the Nicene Creed with one baptism replaced by three, this is a first class heresy.'

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Introibo: Therefore, give me a specific reference to ANY pre-Vatican II council, theologian, Canon law, or papal decree that teaches

(a) Catechisms promulgated by the pope and/or catechisms promulgated by conferences/councils of bishops with formal papal approval can teach error.

Lionel:
None of them say they teach error.Neither do they say that the sedevantists are interpreting the Catechism and Vatican Council II with error.
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Lionel:
I have given you the actual error.I have given you specific references of the error in Church documents in previous blog post.

Introibo: No. All you did was claim an error existed.

Lionel:

Yes if you infer someone in Heaven is on earth. This is an error. An error exists.

When you build a theology upon people in Heaven existing on earth, then an error exists.

Correct the error, without saying Pope Pius XII was not a true pope and made the error during his pontificate in the Boston Heresy case. The Archbishop of Boston Cardinal Cushing was in manifest heresy and the pope supported it and the sedevantists have accepted it.

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Lionel:It is Catholic teaching that when the pope speaks ex cathedra he is infallible. The infallibility of the pope is a dogma of the Church. Similarly extra ecclesiam nulla salus is a dogma of the Church it is an infallible teaching.

Introibo: It is also infallibly defined by that same Vatican Council that proclaimed the infallibility of the pope, ALSO proclaimed the Infallibility of the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium which you deny!!!

Lionel: When a church document,sedevacantist or traditionalist says BOD and BOB are exceptions to the dogma,

Introibo: What dogma? BOD and BOB make you part of the Church so it's not an exception to EENS!!

Lionel: 
The dogma is EENS. It does not mention BOD and BOB.

You reject EENS with explicit BOB and BOD. I accept EENS and also implicit for us BOD and BOB:You change the Nicene Creed with explicit BOB and BOD. You interpret Vatican Council II as a break with Tradition and EENS with explicit for us LG 16. So you also again heretically reject Vatican Council II. Since you reject EENS with explicit for us BOD, BOB and LG 16 you are also rejecting the dogma on the infallibility of the pope ex catedra, i.e when three Church Councils defined EENS. Isn't all this enough for you ?

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Lionel:This is irratiional. It is also heretical. Since it contradicts the dogma on salvation and the infallibility of the pope ex cathedra.

Introibo: The Ordinary Magisterium Can't contradict the extraordinary because BOTH are infallible when declaring something must be believed. All the theologians and Doctors of the Church have taught BOTH and therefore explained how the two are compatible. One is the ordinary way( BOW) the other extraordinary (BOD/BOB) to obtain membership in the Church and salvation!!

Lionel:

All this is meaningless since you will not make the explicit-implicit distinction. Here is what you have said above with the distinction between invisible and visible made for you.

The Ordinary Magisterium ( which considers BOD, BOB and LG 16 invisible for us) Can't contradict the extraordinary ( which considers BOD, BOB )because BOTH are infallible when declaring something must be believed. All the theologians and Doctors of the Church have taught BOTH ( with BOD, BOB and LG 16 being invisible for us ) and therefore explained how the two are compatible.( only with BOD, BOB and LG 16 invisible for us and visible for God only ) One is the ordinary way( BOW which is invisible) the other extraordinary (with BOD/BOB being invisible ) to obtain membership in the Church and salvation!!

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Lionel:
The Church does not teach there is error in general in a catechism and so no document has to claim it does.If there is an error it would be corrected practically.

Introibo: Since catechisms are protected from error by the Holy Ghost they can contain NO mistakes whatsoever! God makes it so!

Lionel:

Interesting, a sede who rejects the Catechism and Vatican Council II is saying there is no error...

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NO citations! I have proven that catechisms approved by the Holy Father cannot teach error as they are under the infallibility of the ordinary Magisterium.

Lionel: 
You reject them as a sede ?!

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They teach BOD and BOB without BOW which you REJECT!

Lionel:
They teach BOB and BOB as being invisible for us. They can in fact, in reality,defacto only be inviisble for us.I accept this.

For you they are explicit for us. I reject this.

Your not going to clarify your position here since your whole sede-liberal theology will come crumbling down.

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Introibo: More proof Lionel holds the heretical notion that the Holy Ghost can allow the Ordinary Magisterium to err! As if GOD can be overcome by "pressure groups"!
Lionel: The pope is infallible only ex cathedra i.e in the the Extra Ordinary Magisterium .

Introibo: Then you deny the ex cathedra teaching of the First Vatican Council which proclaims the infallibility of the ordinary and universal Magisterium.

Lionel:
The Magisterium ordinary and extra ordinary before 1808 taught BOB and BOD were invisible for us and known only to God . This is common sense. They cannot be known and visible to us.

The Magisterium ( ordinary) contradicted the pre 1808 Magisterium and inferred that BOB and BOD referred to explicit cases and so they were exceptions to the traditional, centuries old interpretation of the dogma. The sedes have chosen the irrational post 1808 ordinary magisterium and contradict the extra ordinary Magisterium which defined the dogma.

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Lionel: Anyway even without their citation you reject the Catechism ( 1995) as a sedevacantist.

No. I reject a pseudo-catechism that was not approved by a true pope!

Lionel:
So it is pseudo for you and not for me. So much of the Catechism(1992) repeats what is mentioned in the Catechism of Trent which is not pseudo for you.

So there is error in the Catechism for you?

________________________________

Lionel: You also reject Vatican Council II even though there is no official citation saying the Church could make error.

Introibo: The Church cannot make errors but the HIERARCHY CAN DEFECT!

Lionel:

 Now you are saying what I have been saying. There can be human error and this should not be attributed to the Holy Spirit.

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Proof:St. Robert Bellarmine (1610) “A pope who is a manifest heretic automatically (per se) ceases to be pope and head, just as he ceases automatically to be a Christian and a member of the Church. Wherefore, he can be judged and punished by the Church. This is the teaching of all the ancient Fathers who teach that manifest heretics immediately lose all jurisdiction.” De Romano Pontifice. II.30.

Lionel:

St. Bellarmine also did not say BOD and BOB are exceptions or relevant to EENS. This is the mistake of Fr. Anthony Cekada.

Pope Pius XII made an innocent mistake in the Boston Case. Does he cease to automatically be a Christian and a member of the Church ?

________________________________

VICTORY! (Continued)

Lionel: Pope Pius XII made an objective error in the Boston Case. He mixed up what was invisible as being visible. I mentioned this in an earlier post. Is he a false pope for you?

Introibo: YOU think he made an error. He did not. So yes, he was a true pope. If you think he taught heresy you should be a sedevacantist!

Lionel:

You have said that the baptism of desire is not visible to us.It is not known in the present times.So how could BOD be an exception to EENS according to the Letter of the Holy Office 1949. Why they did condemn Fr. Leonard Feeney? This was during the pontificate of Pope ius XII. You say BOD is invisible. How can an invisible case be relevant to the dogma EENS?Cardinal Ottaviani and Cardinal Marchetti Selvggiani were in error. They were promoting heresy.

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Lionel: I repeat I do not deny BOD and BOB. I do not have to deny them since they are not relevant or exceptions to EENS.I accept them.

Introibo: No, you do not accept them as the Church teaches. You're right; they are not exceptions to EENS because they cause Church membership and grace to those that receive them without BOW.
Lionel:
That's not why I am right. I am right because they do not exist for us in the present times. You are afraid to say this. The sedes are afraid to say this over four months. Since their house of straw theology will collapse. It is based on a factual error.
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Lionel: The pope is infallible only ex cathedra i.e in the the Extra Ordinary Magisterium .

Introibo: A direct denial of the Infallible (ex cathedra) teaching of the First Vatican Council!
Lionel:
When the ordinary magisterium infers people in heaven are exceptions on earth please do not attribute this to the Holy Spirit.
______________________________________

Lionel:
I accept BOD and BOB. You have not been able to provide a single citation which says BOD and BOB refer to explicit cases, personally known and so are relevant to the dogma EENS or, are exceptions to all needing to formally convert with 'faith and baptism'.
Not a single citation.

Introibo: You do not accept BOD/BOW as the Church teaches. I will give you your citation below in my summary.
Lionel:
By 'as the Church teaches' you mean as the present Magisterium uses an irrational inference, I should do the same.
I accept them in principle.They do not contradict Feeneyism.
I reject Cushingism, which assumes BOD is explicit and so relevant to the dogma EENs.

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Introibo: For someone who's big on alleged distinctions of "visible and invisible" you can't distinguish between "true pope/false pope."
In other words, sedevacantists are not teaching that catechisms approved by the Holy See teach error. We are saying, in conformity of the unanimous consent of the theologians, the papal decree of Pope Paul IV "Ex Cum Apostolatus Officio", of 1559, and canon law that a heretic CANNOT be pope. Therefore, when the post-V2 popes professed heresy in their personal capacity they ceased to be (or never became) pope. Hence, there was no protection of the Holy Ghost from error since they were not members of the Church. YOU think a professed heretic can be pope! Therefore, the Holy Ghost failed the Church! That is blasphemy. The difference between our positions is very clear!

Lionel: So the bottom line is that you reject the Catechism ( 1992).

Introibo: No, the bottom line is you didn't understand what I wrote above. The 1992 "Catechism" is not a catechism because no pope approved it.

Lionel:
It was approved by a pope.Historically he was the pope.Also there is doctrine in the Catechism(1992) which is the same as the Council of Trent.
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You accept Antipope John Paul II, the Koran-kissing apostate who in Togo actually paid homage and worship to the "sacred snakes" of the pagans!
Lionel:
This is your personal judgement and condemnation. You do not and cannot know his motivations and views.
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He's no pope--but you think he is, Lionel. Were they "innocent mistakes"?

Lionel asked for a citation to an explicit case of BOD or BOB. An explicit case is St. Victor.

Lionel:
Explicit refers to someone who is explicit in November 2015. He would have to be explicit for those of us who live today, for him to be an exception to the dogma , which tells us all need explicit baptism of water.
People who lived in the past cannot be explicit today.Common sense.

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St. Victor is in the Roman Martyrology, approved as part of the liturgy by Pope Gregory XIII in 1582. St. Victor is in this book pertaining to the liturgy and it declares that he died AS A CATECHUMEN (i.e. unbaptized) because he was "baptized in his own blood." Had he died after water baptism he would not be considered a catechumen and would have not have died as one.

Lionel:
And he is not explicit today.

________________________________The Church cannot make anything in the liturgy that is an incentive to impiety. The Roman Martyrology is an outward sign of the liturgy and to claim that St. Victor somehow received BOW after BOB would make the liturgy an incentive to impiety, because people reading the plain meaning of the words would naturally think BOB alone was true.

Lionel:
No one saw him in Heaven without the baptism of water to make this claim in the liturgy.
________________________________

The Council of Trent infallibly decreed:
"Canon 7. If anyone says that the ceremonies, vestments, and outward signs which the Catholic Church uses in the celebration of masses, are incentives to impiety rather than stimulants to piety, let him be anathema."

Lionel:
Yes so it should not be said that he and St. Emerentiana are in Heaven when none of us could know or could know this.It should not have been placed in the liturgy.

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Therefore, on the authority of Pope Gregory XIII, and the Council of Trent, I know St. Victor is in Heaven with BOB alone, just like the Roman Martyrology says. The Holy Ghost knows how St. Victor's soul got there, so He would not allow His Church to teach this error. No ability to "see the dead is necessary"

Lionel:
When you say that he is in Heaven your telling me that someone could see him in Heaven after he died.This is nonsense.
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So there are my citations Lionel!
Lionel:
What citations? St. Victor is alive today and explicit ? 
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VICTORY SUMMATION

1. Lionel Andrades claims to believe in BOD and BOB. In truth, he believes that BOW must follow them for salvation.
Lionel:
Yes. Since this is the dogmatic teaching in EENS and we personally cannot know any exception. Cushingism which cites exceptions is irrational.
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2. He confuses BOD and BOB as being "exceptions" to EENS. They are not since they make you a member of the Church same as BOW.
Lionel:
He affirms invisible for us BOD and BOB so they are not exceptions to EENS. He accepts this.
Explicit for us BOD and BOB would be exceptions to EENS. This would also be irrational . So he rejects this.

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3. He denies the infallibility of the Universal and Ordinary Magisterium (UOM) of the Church. Ironically, this infallibility of the UOM was declared ex cathedra by the First Vatican Council.

Lionel:

He afirms the Extra ordinary Magisterium of the Church and rejests the ordinary magisterium when it infers BOD and BOB are explicit for us in the present times.It contradicts the pre 1808 Extra ordinary and ordinary magisterium.

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4. He believes that catechisms approved by true popes (whose teachings are protected from error by the UOM) nevertheless contain errors.

Lionel:

Not in general but there is a specific error with respect to the dogma EENs. The dogma has not link with BOD and BOB allegedly explicit for us.The link was made in the Baltimore Catechism, the Catechism of Pope PIus X and the Catechism of the Catholic Church (1992).

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5. Popes, saints, and theologians have affirmed BOTH the absolute necessity of Baptism by water AND BOD/BOB.

Lionel:

Yes as long as they are kept separate and not connected. If BOB and BOD are considered explicit then it is irrational. It is inferring that the popes and saints made a mistake.

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Either they are schizophrenic, or they were referring to the ORDINARY way to enter the Church (water baptism) and Extraordinary means (BOD and BOB without water baptism)

Lionel:

They were aware of the explicit -implicit distinction.

_____________________________6. St. Victor is but one example of a saint in Heaven without BOW because he's saved by BOB.

Lionel:

You would not know for sure.Neither would any one else in the Church.

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7. Lionel thinks we need to be able to "see the dead" to confirm St. Victor is in Heaven. We do not.

Lionel:

Yes. Otherwise how could he be an exception to the dogma which is inspired by the Holy Spirit.How could the Holy Spirit make a mistake.

Anyway physically it is not possible to confirm if St. Victor was an exception.

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The Holy Ghost will not allow an incentive to impiety in the liturgy or any falsehood at all to be taught.God sees St. Victor and will not allow His Church to teach a falsehood in the liturgy. So it is not necessary to "see St. Victor in Heaven without BOW." I gave citations to Pope Gregory XIII and the Council of Trent.

Lionel:

The Holy Spirit will not allow it. This is being said after hearing the statements of contemporary popes and cardinals ?

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8. Lionel has no citations, and claims that popes and catechisms as well as the First Vatican council's infallible decree on the UOM can all teach error. This is a blasphemy against God Who protects His One True Church from error.

Lionel:

The pre 1808 Magisterium is contradicted by the post 1808 Magisteriu, So at one time an error was made.

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9. Lionel has claimed that we need to read Church documents making the distinction of "visible/invisible" and "explicit/implicit" so as to render Vatican II compatible with Tradition.

Lionel:

Yes. Vatican Council II is compatible with Tradition when this rational distinction is made.

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Actually, I ask my readers to read all of our exchanges above making the distinction. "common sense/really stupid." If you read them with common sense you'll see the Catholic position. If you read them being really stupid, you'll end up a bizarre heretic like Lionel Andrades.

Lionel:

I hope your readers have the courage and integrity to make the distinction.

-Lionel Andrades

There is nothing in Vatican Council II to contradict Cantate Dominio on ecumenism and other religions

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2015/11/there-is-nothing-in-vatican-council-ii.html


Sedevacantist decides not to answer if LG 16, LG 8, UR 3 etc refer to explicit or implicit cases - 2
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2015/11/sedevacantist-decides-not-to-answer-if_13.html