Repost : I do not refute BOD, BOB and I.I since they are not known cases for me. They do not contradict EENS,I am comfortable with them.
JANUARY 3, 2018
I do not refute BOD, BOB and I.I since they are not known cases for me. They do not contradict EENS,I am comfortable with them.
Lionel, I dont believe you really understand what you are arguing against. Your
repeated reference to visible cases in 2017 is a straw man argument.
I thought you agreed with me - there are no physically visible cases of BOD in 2017.
there were none in 2016 and there are none in 2018.
We cannot physically see someone saved with BOD, I.I or BOB.
Do we agree on this?
What ever are the other inferences that follow, which we accept or do not accept, fundamentally, we agree that there are no physically visible people saved with BOD in 2017-2018 ?
I am not arguing that there are 2017 cases which can be known with absolute certainty.
Lionel: Are they known or not known ? Are there physically visible cases known to someone on earth?
I am saying that they become known only when the Church canonizes a dead
Lionel: O.K so you are saying that if the Church canonizes someone in 2018 and announces that this person was saved with the BOD and without the baptism of water then it would known. You mean it would be known as a possibility, in faith.
Only as a possibility or are you saying that someone in the Church would physically see such a person?
Also you err when you refer to these cases as "saved outside the
church" and that is actually the fundamental error in your position.
Lionel: No one is saved outside the Church for me. I affirm EENS.
Canonized catechumens are saved in the Church because there is no salvation outside of
Lionel : Duh!
1. I agree there are no visible cases in 2017 known with absolute certainty
(although I could argue for moral probabilities in some known cases).
Lionel: What do you mean by absolute certaintity, are they known or not known, are they visible or not visible, can they be objectively seen or not seen?
But you attempt to use this point to refute BOD in toto, and that doesnt work because of
Lionel: I only accept BOD as a possibility, in theory, as a hypothetical case. It cannot be anything else for me.Since it is hypothetical it does not contradict EENS. So it is not a problem for me. I do not have to reject it. I can afirm Feeneyite EENS and also BOD.
I affirm BOD, BOB and I.I.They are not physically visible people for me.
2. There ARE known cases in the cases of canonized catechumens who were martyred
before water baptism.
Lionel: You accept this in faith, as a possibility.
For me there are no physically visible cases in 2018 and there could not be any in 1965,1949 or when someone suggested there were such cases, and mentioned it in the Martryology of the saints, just as they have mentioned it in the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 which has been placed in the Denzinger.
3. These cases are not exceptions to EENS because of the dogma of EENS. These
saints were joined to the Church quoad se.
Lionel: They are not exceptions to EENS for me too.
So you are saying that BOD, BOB and I.I are not exceptions to EENS since they are not physically visible cases(as it is for me) and that those who consider them as being exceptions to EENS are wrong e.g SSPX, Pope Benedict, CDF etc?
So your continued appeal to no known cases in 2017 is a straw man argument that
cannot refute BOD.
Lionel. I do not refute BOD, BOB and I.I since they are not known cases for me. They do not contradict EENS,I am comfortable with them. If they happened to be known people in the present times, saved outside the Church, then only they could be exceptions to EENS.
So for me there is no known salvation outside the Church, also for you?