Monday, March 11, 2019

Vatican Council II is dogmatic and not just pastoral : Franciscan Friar does not believe it


I was talking to a Franciscan Friar the other day and he was telling me that Vatican Council II was not a dogmatic but pastoral Council,since it did not announce any new dogma. Note well: this is a liberal saying this. He has one more year of theology left to complete at the Anthonianum.He is repeating the same line as the traditionalists, sedevacantists and the Society of St. Pius X(SSPX).
 
So I referred to Lumen Gentium, the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church.For me Vatican Council II supported the strict interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus(EENS).So in this sense, it was dogmatic. It was affirming the old exclusivist ecclesiology, an ecunenism of return and the Syllabus of Errors of Pope Pius IX. Like the Catechism of Pope Pius X it was saying all need to be members of the Catholic Church for salvation.There are only Catholics in Heaven.
He did not believe me.
I told him that we were looking at the same text in Vatican Council II and were interpreting it differently.
 This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. -Lumen Gentium 14
So Lumen Gentium, like Ad Gentes 7 supports the traditional interpretation of the dogma outside the Church there is no salvation as it was known to the missionaries and Magisterium, for example, in the 16th century. In this sense Vatican Council II is dogmatic.
Upon this dogmatic teaching there can be various pastoral approaches. 
The difference between me and the Friar was that we was taught to interpret the red as an exception to the blue 1, he would interpret hypothetical red passages in Lumen Gentium, as referring to non hypothetical, objective and personally known non Catholics saved outside the Church, in the present times. So there was a rupture with the orthodox blue passages and the dogma EENS.

Lumen Gentium 14, Vatican Council II

14. This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.
They are fully incorporated in the society of the Church who, possessing the Spirit of Christ accept her entire system and all the means of salvation given to her, and are united with her as part of her visible bodily structure and through her with Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. The bonds which bind men to the Church in a visible way are profession of faith, the sacraments, and ecclesiastical government and communion. He is not saved, however, who, though part of the body of the Church, does not persevere in charity. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but, as it were, only in a "bodily" manner and not "in his heart."(12*) All the Church's children should remember that their exalted status is to be attributed not to their own merits but to the special grace of Christ. If they fail moreover to respond to that grace in thought, word and deed, not only shall they not be saved but they will be the more severely judged.(13*)
Catechumens who, moved by the Holy Spirit, seek with explicit intention to be incorporated into the Church are by that very intention joined with her. With love and solicitude Mother Church already embraces them as her own.- Lumen Gentium 14, Vatican Council II

So Vatican Council II is not just a pastoral Council, it is dogmatic. It is saying outside the Church there is no known salvation. It is saying that there can only be an ecumenism of return since there are no  exceptions to the dogma EENS mentioned in Unitatis Redintigratio 3, Decree on Ecumenism.
It is also saying that there can only be the past exclusive ecclesiology of the Catholic Church today, in 2019, since LG 8, LG 16, NA 2, GS 22 etc are not objective exceptions to the teaching on all needing to be members of the Catholic Church to avoid Hell. All - and not those who know or do not know about Jesus and the Church.Also we humans cannot know who will be saved or not saved in invincible ignorance and who knows or does not know, and will be saved.
So there are no exceptions to Feeneyite EENS mentioned in Lumen Gentium or Ad Gentes-none in the entire text.
-Lionel Andrades




1

 JANUARY 28, 2019


In Magisterial documents the red is not an exception to the blue, the red does not contradict the blue : with the blue there is a hermeneutic of continuity with Tradition (16th- century extra ecclesium nulla salus, the Syllabus of Errors, ecumenism of return, past exclusivist ecclesiology etc)
https://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2019/01/in-magisterial-documents-red-is-not.html

_________________________________________

JANUARY 28, 2019

So finally I should have a list of magisterial documents with the blue passages affirming Sacred Tradition and the red passages no more being seen as exceptions

https://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2019/01/so-finally-i-should-have-list-of.html

JANUARY 28, 2019

In Dominus Iesus the red is not an exception to the blue, the red does not contradict the blue : there is a hermeneutic of continuity with Tradition ( EENS, Syllabus of Errors, ecumenism of return, past exlcusivist ecclesiology etc) 

 https://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2019/01/in-dominus-iesus-red-is-not-exception.html

CLICK TO ACCESS / THIS IS FROM THE RIGHT HAND SIDE BAR





Posted by at
Labels:

No comments:

Post a Comment

Subscribe to: Post Comments (Atom)