Repost : So 'the Church' was wrong in the Letter of the Holy Office 1949. Similarly at Vatican Council 'the Church' assumed there were known cases of BOD, BOB and I.I and 'the Church 'was wrong.

 

 JANUARY 29, 2018

So 'the Church' was wrong in the Letter of the Holy Office 1949. Similarly at Vatican Council 'the Church' assumed there were known cases of BOD, BOB and I.I and 'the Church 'was wrong.

Our Church, the Roman Catholic Church professes that St. Emerentiana IS in Heaven. She is to have died as a Saint while a Catechumen and related to St. Agnes in the 3rd. Century. She was stoned to death. I believe this for it. I certainly do accept this as a matter of fact and Church teaching. ALL people that are in Heaven Are Catholic. If the Catholic Church profesess that a Bob is in Heaven then they are in Heaven.

 Of course there is Bob, Bod and II But they are not for man to pursue.  All people that

are in Heaven are in Heaven ARE Catholic. If the Catholic Church professes that a Bob is in Heaven they most certainly are in Heaven.

Lionel: The Catholic Church can profess that St.Emerentiana is a saint and we accept it.

The Catholic Church cannot profess that St.Emerentiana is in Heaven with the baptism of blood and without the baptism of water.

No one at the time of St.Emerentiana could have seen her in Heaven without the baptism of water.At least the Church does not recognise any one who has this supernatural gift.

Secondly if 'the Church' at the time of St. Emerentiana said that she is in Heaven without the baptism of water then ' the Church' was wrong.It would be just like ' the Church' in 1949, when it was  suggested that there were known cases of the baptism of desire(BOD) and baptism of blood(BOB) and being saved in invincible ignorance(I.I).There were no known cases.So there were no known exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus as it was known to Fr. Leonard Feeney of Boston. So  'the Church' was wrong in the Letter of the Holy Office 1949.
Similarly at Vatican Council 'the Church' assumed there were known cases of BOD, BOB and I.I and 'the Church' was wrong.

There were no visible and known cases of BOD,BOB and I.I.

Similarly if 'the Church' at the time of St.Emerentiana or later, assumed there were physically visible cases of BOD, BOB and I.I then 'the Church' made an objective mistake.Since for us humans there are no such cases.

Invisible people cannot be exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus(EENS).BOD, BOB and I.I are not relevant to EENS -unless of course someone saw an exception in real life.-Lionel Andrades

JANUARY 29, 2018

St.Emerentiana a possibility - how is she relevant to extra ecclesiam nulla salus?

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2018/01/stemerentiana-possibility-how-is-she.html

WEDNESDAY, MARCH 15, 2017

A St. Emerentina of the past cannot be an exception to the dogma EENS in 2017. This is faulty reasoning.

George's answer:  BOTH baptism of Blood and Baptism of Desire are both recognizable .

They are not! Name some case in 2016-2017.

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 Saints that ARE in Heaven and died in their condition of martyrdom and/or desire as a member of the Catholic Church. 

This is speculation and belief.There is no physically visible case in the past or present. Since human being cannot see these cases in Heaven if they existed and contradicted the dogma EENS.

This is irrational.

Neither can we say that any particular person on earth in 2017 will be saved with the baptism of desire or in invicible ignorance.

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What we do not know and should no matter to us is whether they were baptized in Heaven or not.

If they are in Heaven they are baptised since the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus (EENS) indicates this.

If a saint is in Heaven you or someone else can only speculate that it is without the baptism of water and with BOD. There is no general Church teaching on BOD for every one with no exception.

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 This should not matter nor should we care weather they were Baptized or not for they are in Heaven. They are BOTH Most visible to us all.

They are not.

Since you say they are there in Heaven non- baptised you contradict what you said a few weeks back about all who are in Heaven are Catholics with the baptism of water,

Since you say that they are in Heaven without the baptism of water in the Catholic Church, it is important that I mention that there are no physically visible persons in Heaven known to us,as such.No one can see ghosts or spirits in Heaven.At least not you and I.

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You said:  " He does not state that all Christians need to formally enter the Church as members."

George's answer: No a Saint , whether they proclaimed Sainthood through Baptism of Blood of or Desire as described by countless Saints ( who ARE in HEAVEN ) throughout centuries have been professed by the Church as ALREADY in Heaven. ALL WERE CATHOLIC. and  most certainly Catholic.

You cannot say all Christians need to formally enter the Church for salvation and that in Heaven there are only Catholics and then suggest that the baptism of desire, represents someone known in Heaven without the baptism of water.This is contradictory. Your a Cushingite.You are also magisterial,I concede!

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You said: "  It was wrongly assumed that there were personally known, objectively seen cases of non Catholics saved without the baptism of water in the Catholic Church.

VIOLATES PRINCIPLE OF NON CONTRADICTION

This is irrational. It is an objective error .It violates the Principle of Non Contradiction and upon this error a new theology is created in Nostra Aetate. "

Absolutely false for Baptism of Blood and Desire Catholics who are in HEAVEN are most definitely Catholic.

We do not know of any such case we can only speculate or hope so.

Secondlly for the baptism of desire (without the baptism of water) to be an exception to the dogma EENS, it would have to be personally known in 2017. I have mentioned this numerous times before. A St. Emerentina of the past cannot be an exception to the dogma EENS in 2017. This is faulty reasoning.

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YOU said:

 "With a false premise making Vatican Council II(NA) a break with Tradition there was a non traditional conclusion, a new doctrine which was accepted in the Church. This was an innovation based on an irrationality and so it could not be the work of the Holy Spirit.

Cushing made an error, a human error."

 Absolutely correct for it was implied that another religion would serve as a basis to eternal life in Heaven.

Yes.He implies that there is salvation outside the Church, in another religion.

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AS far as Invincible Ignorance Saints are concerned they merit no comment from me, you or anyone other than the Catholic Church who has the right and duty  to comment on this on any issue. 

The Catholic Church did have the right, when you were a young man. There still was a magisterium.

Now there is no magisterium.

The present teachings on salvation, Vatican Council II etc are not that of the Holy Spirit.These teachings have human error and are a rupture with the magisterium of the past.

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We could not even envision what a person who IS invicincibly Ignorant truly go through..... Their moral certitude is up to God as to whether or not they would be great and HOLY Catholics. Not up to you, me or Father Feeney.

You mean there are no physically known cases in 2017? There are no personally known cases in 2017, similar to the baptism of desire?

-Lionel Andrades